Astral Perception and the -2 dice, The nature of the penalty Options

[Moon-Hawk]

When astrally perceiving, you take a -2 die penalty to purely physical actions, right?
Is that more of a visibility penalty or more of a distraction penalty? Would the Multitasking adept power allow them to ignore the distraction and function without the penalty?
Or is it actually interfering with their vision, in which case it wouldn't help?
Thanks.

[Demerzel]

It is interefeering with their vision.

Purely physical objects are only shadows, emotional content may obscure shape/size, etc.

[Moon-Hawk]

So what you're saying is, when you use astral perception (which is a purely psychic sense which does not require eyes but is frequently described using a visual metaphor, and this psychic sense can only detect purely physical objects as shadows) actually shuts down the users eyes while they're astrally perceiving?
That seems odd to me. Dual natured creatures don't have to deal with that penalty, do they?

[Demerzel]

It actually shuts down the eyes, you shift your perception from the physical to the astral. Dual natured creatures are so used to seeing this way the penalty is not there.

[Moon-Hawk]

Hmmm, it still seems a bit odd, but taking game balance into consideration I think I'm going to take your interpretation.
Having perception on all the time with no penalty would be pretty huge for a PC.
Thanks.

[ornot]

Astral perception is not linked with physical senses such as sight, hearing (p182). So if you are going to declare that it 'shuts down the eyes' you must also acknowledge that it shuts down the ears too.

I personally feel that astral perception should not be confused with sight (although, to my chagrin, it seems to be described almost exclusively in visual terms), but rather acts as a 6th sense that encompasses aspects of the other 5. Everything that one senses while astrally perceiving is really an astral reflection of what is taking place in the real world (including sounds).

I would attribute the physical action penalty incurred for astrally perceiving to be a consequence of unfamiliarity with the sense rather than any degree of interference. Consider that astral perception must be cultivated, unlike seeing, hearing etc. which are innate since birth. Of course dual natured creatures gain continual astral sight as an innate trait (although the theory does fall down a bit with creatures that become dual natured eg. ghouls).

[Demerzel]

Yes, astral perception shifts your entire perception including sound and touch and everything. You get only astral versions of those. The basis for my belief that you can't see and astrally percieve is that astrally percieving characters can't read. Not just astrally projecting.

[Kyoto Kid]

[Demerzel]

Boy, I feel like I'm getting further and further out on a limb here.

There is a problem with possessed characters and channeling.

Is a channeling mage really astrally percieving? He is astrally active due to the possession, but the spirit is the one perceiving, the mage could possibly be looking out his own eyes, and he's only succeptable to astral space due to the link between the spirit and his body. Perhaps he can choose to be either percieving astrally or not as usual costing a simple action to switch, just always dual natured regardless of perception mode?

I'd say I basically dont' know enough about possession, nor have I considered possession enough. I've mostly avoided it in my game.

[Jaid]

in the case of possession, the spirit is in full control. since astral perception is the spirit's natural method of perceiving the world, no penalty.

as far as someone channelling, i would say that they are stuck in astral perception, but are not natural astral perceivers... and therefore do suffer the penalty.

[laughingowl]

To me it is not soo much as 'shutting' down the eyes, but the human brain needs some way to interrupt the data.

The way most brains find it easiest to interrupt is visual. Thus in the brain it replaces what the meat eyes would see with a visual mapping of what it can sense in the astral.

You 'can' see both, but you are seeing alot of extra stuff you dont normally see.

Dual Natured creatures (and I would possibly allow meta-magic for normal awakened to reach this state) are used to see both sets of information and it confuses / distracts them no more then seeing color does to you (although a Dog would likely find it very confusing).

Peace

[Demerzel]

Coinidentally [and off topic slightly]:

Turns out giving a mouse the ability to see full color dosen't require any fancy brain work:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa...D5721F0&ref=rss

[Ancient History]

Authors typically use sight because its the easiest metaphor for reading people to grasp, but the information content is completely non-physical and non-dependent on physical senses. If you played a born a blind and deaf full magician with no sense of touch, smell, or taste, they could still use astral perception. English does not currently have the proper words to describe astral perception, because at this point they are not needed.

That said, there is nothing to say that every character interprets or describes their astral experience in the same way. An adept with Improved Sense (Improved Smell) power or a shapeshifter might describe auras and astral signatures as scents or spoor; a magician blind from birth might use sound or music as a common frame of reference. A dwarf or troll might use compare auras to heat patterns they see using their thermographic vision.

[TheOOB]

You gain the penalty on physical actions while your astrally perciving for the same reason you gain a penalty on actions while sustaining a spell. Your concentraition is split between multiple things, in this case acting in the physical world while maintaining a connection to the astral.

[Protector152]

So multitasking would negate the penalty since it lets you focus on multiple things at once? I mean if multitasking can remove the penalty for sustaining spells...

[Jaid]

[Demerzel]

Since you asked for a rule:

[hyzmarca]

Ah, but perceiving the astral plane and using Astral Perception are two different things. Using Astral Perception makes you Dual Natured even if you choose not to percieve the astral plane.

[Jaid]

[hyzmarca]

Using the Astral Perception ability creates an Astral Body for the character, making that character temporarilary dual-natured. In previous editions, this was enough since dual-natured beings were always aware of both planes.

In SR4, however, it is not. A Dual Natured being can only be aware of one plane at a time and must spend a simple action to shift perception.
Therefore, if he hold a strict interpretation of the rules, viewing the astral plane requires two actions, one to activate Astral Perception and another to shift perfeption to the Astral Plane. This interpretation also allows one to remain dual-natured wile viewing the physical plane, which has few, but substantial, advantages. The most obvious is the ability to negate the -2 modifier to physical actions while holding or standing on purely astral constructs. For example, when climbing up an Astral Lader and then shooting at someone through a window, the extra two dice help but you don't want to give up your astral body because doing so will simply make you fall.

[Demerzel]

Dude, where are you getting this from?

The next sentance:

[Ravor]

Also although I could be wrong, I've always been under the impression that while Dual Natured you were limtied to the most restrictive of the two planes, which means that anyone trying to climb an 'astral ladder' would end up flat on his face since there isn't anything in the real world to hold up his meat bod...

[hyzmarca]

The old rules for Astral Constructs stated that they acted just like real object and dual beings could use them just like real objects, meaning that it is possible to climb an astral ladder or sit on an astral chair if it is a construct, untill SR4 rules explicitly say otherwise.

[Ravor]

Hmm, must have been one of the bits that I thought was silly and decided to ignore in Third Edition.

Thanks for the info...

[ornot]

That kind of rule does lead to the ever silly aatrally projecting mage bludgeoning corporeal folk with a dual natured ghoul. Which is rather silly, and not really in keeping with the feel of the game, IMO.