 Time, Pool, and the Flow of Combat, the SR3R way |
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 Mar 28 2007, 07:37 PM
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#26
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115  |
the other advantage to the interlevened actions on the 20 scale is that it easily handles any changes to inititive from damage, etc.
To tell you the truth I don't like having to go into a "negative" initiative, since some people get confused to easily, but I have not found a better way to handle distributed IP's. Brilliant retort nez. |
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Mar 28 2007, 08:12 PM
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#27
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Not as cute as if we use a partially imaginary differential formula to determine the order of initiative with one real dimension corresponding to each participant and the turn order based on relative diagonals from the origin. I call it "Fractal Initiative Migrane" or FIM for short. |
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Mar 28 2007, 08:48 PM
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#28
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
I'll probably be drawn and quartered for this, but how about getting rid of multiple passes altogether?
Put down your ropes and hear me out. Looking at the fluff and descriptions in all iterations of SR, Wired Reflexes and it's ilk are supposed to decrease reaction time. They make you REACT more quickly, not ACT more quickly. "Bullet time" is great, but I don't think it's so integral to SR that you can't game without it. If Joe Samurai is at the shooting range with Fred the accountant, it doesn't make sense that Joe can empty a magazine in a 3rd of the time it takes Fred just because he has Wired Reflexes level 2. Now, if Joe has a misfire/jam, he will probably be quicker to start corrective action. Or if a ninja pops out from behind one of the targets, Joe will probably be quicker to change his point of aim. But once he is on target, his finger will be pulling the trigger just as slow as Fred's. So how about this: Reflex boosting 'ware/magic gives a bonus to initiative. Probably a flat plus instead of extra dice. It also should modify things like the penalty to TNs when switching targets. How about also having it give extra dodge dice, or something to that effect? Obviously, I haven't pounded away at the mechanics yet, but I think the idea makes sense? It would certainly fix the issue of "does the sammy get all of his extra actions before or after the bad guys get to act?" |
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Mar 28 2007, 09:09 PM
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#29
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Don't worry, we're not going to draw and quarter you.
So who's bringing the breaking wheel? (One thing that you're forgetting is that in general you need to retarget after every shot, since the firearm itself moves to some degree and in SR the target is likely to be changing position) ~J |
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Mar 29 2007, 12:32 AM
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#30
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Maintaining a sight picture on a moving target (while dealing with semi automatic recoil) has never been exceedingly difficult with any of the small arms I've ever used. Switching targets after the first shot is always far more time consuming than continuing to empty rounds into your initial target. I suppose if you are one-handing a .500 S&W Magnum, it might be an issue.
On the M-16 qual range, there were many pop-up targets scattered about from 50 meters to 300 meters. The targets would pop-up in different sequences and at different ranges. You had to key in on the movement, point your weapon in the general direction of the target, line up your sights, and fire. The targets themselves only stayed up for a few seconds, so you had to be relatively quick. I can see how someone with Wired Reflexes would be much quicker to react to the targets on such a course. But once he lines up his sights, he won't be any faster at putting rounds into the same target as the unwired guy. I think you can be Samurai Fast™ in SR without having Sammies get multiple passes, or without bizzare mechanics that allows a faster human to somehow increase the cyclic rate of his automatic firearm above that of mundane human with the same weapon. |
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Mar 29 2007, 06:07 AM
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#31
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
This thread, and the other SR3R threads are being moved over to Community Projects. The original Shadowrun 3rd Revised thread will remain in the Shadowrun forum. They're getting quite a lot of traffic and are sticking to the top of the Shadowrun forum, but would be more appropriately placed in Community Projects.
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Mar 29 2007, 12:44 PM
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#32
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
I think the maximum ROF on weapons will need to be addressed as well, so the cyclic fire thing should, hopefully, become a moot point. Someone who is faster in general I imagine would be able to pull the trigger more often in a ten second period, however.
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Mar 29 2007, 02:39 PM
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#33
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
<emphasis mine> That's the key issue. Should Wired Reflexes™ make you faster to react or faster in general? If we want to stick with the de facto "bullet time" interpretation of Wired Reflexs, then yes, the individual would be faster over all. Then again, the "bullet time" idea doesn't really fit with all the crunch presented in the SR rule book. For example, if Wired Reflexes actually puts you in a state of "bullet time", why would it make you more likely to react to a possible threat without thinking? If time is slowed down, you have "more" time to assess a threat and choose the proper course of action than if you were operating at "normal speed". However, the book pretty cleanly states that you are more likely to dangerously react to a possible threat before being able to properly assess it. The book presents that as the whole reason to have an on/off switch on your WR. Also, with the "bullet time" concept of being faster, you have disconnects with things like movement. A human samurai with Wired Reflexs 3 can normally act at least 4 times faster than someone who is mundane, but still runs as the same speed? So you are supposed to be able to pull a trigger faster, but not move your legs faster? I don't buy it. I think making Wired Reflexs improve your REACTION TIME (not talking just about Reaction attribute), and your initiative fixes most of these issues. It would still give you a considerable edge in combat, but won't make you the king of battle like before. Also, you could follow with reduced essence/nuyen costs for the 'ware, and reduced PP cost for the Adept power. |
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Mar 29 2007, 03:08 PM
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#34
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
An unaugmented human can pull a trigger 10 times in three seconds. What increased initiative does is make it so that they can actually adjust aim and do something useful with those pulls.
The whole "bullet time" nonsense post-dates SR3 rules and is not even worth the argument, but in such movies and games where it did exist (that I have encountered) it did not speed up the characters. It slowed down the reality, so the viewer/player can observe more and react to more while the entire reality in question reamined internally consistant. The only exception to this that comes to mind is in Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy, but that really is supposed to make the jedi fast as a blaster bolt and is not referred to as "bullet time". |
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Mar 29 2007, 03:23 PM
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#35
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
With my USP 45, I can put 10 rounds (damn post ban mags) into a human torso silhouette (10 meters away) in about 3 seconds, and do so quite accurately. Obviously, I have no cybernetic implants, nor would I say that feat is out of the ordinary for someone who has average or above average skill with an automatic handgun and has had lots of practice. Now, if that target is a pop-up target, wired reflexes should significantly reduce the time it takes for me to spot the target's emergency, draw my weapon, and fire that first shot. THAT part should happen more quickly for a wired character than an unwired character.
I agree. I used the term "bullet time" because that's the way I see wired reflexes portrayed in most of the SR games I've played (not as GM). It's the way a lot of players interpret their character being able to fire a hand gun 6 or 8 times in the same time it takes an unwired character to shoot twice. I'm guessing we both agree that "bullet time" is NOT how WR should be portrayed in SR, and the crunch should reflect that. |
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Mar 29 2007, 03:27 PM
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#36
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Pathways into Darkness, 1993. ~J |
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Mar 29 2007, 03:33 PM
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#37
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
So is there a general agreement to toss out the "bullet time" interpretation of wired reflexes?
If so, what do you all think of WR doing things other than giving you extra actions in a combat round? |
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Mar 29 2007, 03:41 PM
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#38
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I don't like the idea one bit, so you're going to have to come up with a very convincing counterproposal.
~J |
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Mar 29 2007, 04:02 PM
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#39
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
I sort of like "bullet time". I don't think it would increase the speed in some actions (such as running), because to a degree, it's limited by the physical shape of the legs. If you move legs past a certain speed, they stop propelling you forward and mostly send you toppling (unless you're a cartoon character, in which case they spin like wheels and off you go). Legs aren't like pistons in an engine or wheels on a car that can just spin at tremendous speed and still be functional.
The 'reacting negatively' part has to do with the body and lower brain going into 'bullet time' while the rest of the brain is struggling to keep up. Theoretically, this is touched upon by the schism between mental and physical initiative suggested earlier. Wired reflexes speed up the body and brain stem, so if the higher brain isn't going that speed, you react... inappropriately sometimes. The brain initiative lets you be more aware and process information faster, even if the world (including your own actions) seem to move in slow motion (sort of like if you've ever been in an accident and everything seems to move slowly). |
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Mar 29 2007, 04:22 PM
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#40
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Kage, if you are already against it, I'm not going to beat my head against the wall to turn you around. Likewise, if most the people who are giving their input on SR3R don't like the idea of changing Wired Reflexes, then I'll just consider it a dead horse.
I'd rather spend my time trying to improve the rulesets that we collectively decide to keep/adopt than spend time trying to sell a concept that people aren't interested in. |
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Mar 29 2007, 04:27 PM
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#41
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Well, we'll never be interested in it if you don't convince us it's interesting :) but yeah, I think this one is a high enough bar that you'd need something obviously more interesting up your sleeve to convince us. Anyway, it's your time and effort to spend or not spend.
~J |
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Mar 30 2007, 12:02 AM
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#42
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
As for the "I can pull the trigger 10 times in 3 seconds" thing, why not just put that discussion over into the Ranged Combat section? That seems to me like a problem with shooting guns, not a problem with the system dictating movement and reaction.
(Discussion to be continued in other thread). |
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Mar 30 2007, 02:04 PM
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#43
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
I agree to a point. Discussions about firearm rates of fire is probably best located in the Ranged Combat thread. But my ROF example was used to illustrate the bizzare consequences you get when actions that take a fixed amount of time in RL can be sped up by someone who has speed increasing cyberware.
If you fix the Time/Flow of Combat part, the Rate of Fire issue will need less tweaking. |
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Mar 30 2007, 02:22 PM
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#44
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Maybe I've been coming at this from the wrong end.
Let's talk about exactly what Wired Reflexes helps you do. We should probably develop the fluff, then work on crunch that reflects the fluff. Here are some of my ideas: Wired Reflexes reduces the time it takes for an individual to move from perception to action. It should also probably help a lot when there is an abrupt change in your environment/surroundings. Those things would basically equal to a bonus to initiative and a bonus on surprise tests. Anyone have any other ideas? |
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Mar 30 2007, 06:08 PM
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#45
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
No, that's a Reaction Enhancer (which, incidentally, provides exactly the bonus you describe). Wired Reflexes are completely different; they're described in the rules as more like short-circuiting the connection between brain and action. The setup takes advantage of your brain stem's reflex actions, like how when your hand touches a hot stove it jerks back, not waiting for your brain to realize that hot+pain=bad. I imagine the system attaches an expert computer along the brain stem, allowing you to literally act without thought. This is why people with Wired reflexes tend to have problems with their actions, more than people with Reaction Enhancers. |
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Mar 30 2007, 06:59 PM
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#46
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
On the iniative thing, i use a variation on the SLA industries iniative.
Roll your iniative, for each full ten or part thereof you get an action (no change so far) But you get them in a stagered order like so The black squares indicating in what phases each person acts. Tie breaks are done in the normal way. |
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Mar 31 2007, 08:11 AM
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#47
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Oh Lord, another table. One to be referred to in the middle of combat, no less. If it's not clear by now, I absolutely detest table lookups; ideas should be either easily expressible in words, and therefore intuitive, or easy to fudge, and therefore not important. This kind of table, like the one many posts above that does the exact same thing, is neither, and so should not be used. Also, repost from Ranged Combat, as it belongs here:
Hmm, rules for engaging an enemy where you have plenty of time to prepare, the enemy can't capably strike back, and you have a clear sight picture on your targets... Hey, sounds like an ambush to me! Whatever we decide on here in terms of initiative boosting and timing considerations, maybe we can adapt that to improved rules on Surprise and Ambushing. That way a 12-second competition shooting match would effectively be 4 full Combat Turns where the competitor freely gets the Ambushing benefits vs. the targets. |
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Mar 31 2007, 04:17 PM
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#48
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Not to say that I like the idea, exactly, but when I just glanced at the table he gave for about a minute yesterday and can remember it in its entirety now, I'm not sure how much weight I can give to this particular argument against it. It's like the weapon ranges, say, or the grenade scatter distances: sufficiently simple, frequently-used tables are easily memorizable, even if they aren't easily transformable into unified formulae. Expressing the idea of that initiative system is overly complex in words, but when a trivial amount of time looking at a picture will do, I'm not sure there's a problem there. ~J |
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Mar 31 2007, 07:19 PM
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#49
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
It also doesn't expand to more than five init passes. Does that mean someone with the remarkably high init of 51 is SOL for his sixth pass?
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Mar 31 2007, 07:52 PM
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#50
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
There are three different ways to solve that that are dead simple, extremely obvious, and are no worse than the status quo.
~J |
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