Matrix Revisited, more house rules Options

[Thanee]

[Garrowolf]

Well I think that anything that impairs the character should be dice pool modifiers. Anything that effects the difficulty of the action for everyone should be thresholds. So wound penalties would still be dice modifiers. Anything directed at the character would be impairing the character's abilities (ie dice pool). An extreme shot on a foggy night should be a hard threshold, but with that smartlinked ultrasound scope the shot could be easy.

[Thanee]

Sounds quite similar to the logic I used back in SR2 with my own dice pool system (dice pool mods vs target number mods). :)

Bye
Thanee

[jgalak]

Thanee,

Did you ever get a chance to create those tables? I really like this mechanic, and would love to see the tables. If not, I guess I'll have to get on them myself... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Thanee]

I havn't continued here in a while... too many distractions! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But I have added some lists to the initial post now, which could be used as a starting point. I have no idea, how well that will work out in practice yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I havn't continued here in a while... too many distractions! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But I have added some lists to the initial post now, which could be used as a starting point. I have no idea, how well that will work out in practice yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Bye
Thanee

After having read the updated information in the original post...

WOW, seems like a lot of book keeping, and a lot of effort... I really like the fact that hacking is fairly quick now days, I have no real need to go back to a system that adds so much complexity that hacking becomes a mini-game all of its own, which this seems to promote... If it works for you that is wonderful, but seem like a lot of effort for very little true gain...

Of course with no testing, and no empirical data from the originator, I cannot truly comment on its effectiveness... let me know how it works out in the end, if you ever get around to testing it in play...

Keep the Faith

[hahnsoo]

After having read the updated information in the original post...

WOW, seems like a lot of book keeping, and a lot of effort... I really like the fact that hacking is fairly quick now days, I have no real need to go back to a system that adds so much complexity that hacking becomes a mini-game all of its own, which this seems to promote... If it works for you that is wonderful, but seem like a lot of effort for very little true gain...

Of course with no testing, and no empirical data from the originator, I cannot truly comment on its effectiveness... let me know how it works out in the end, if you ever get around to testing it in play...

Keep the Faith

It's definitely not quick nowadays. SR 4th edition is just as time-consuming as earlier editions, unless you have a lot of house rules.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's definitely not quick nowadays. SR 4th edition is just as time-consuming as earlier editions, unless you have a lot of house rules.

I completely disagree, we use no houserules and have a very good understanding of the way the Matrix works, and it positively flows in comparison to earlier editions... it may still take 10 minutes to do something, but that 10 minutes is not teh 3 hours it was previously...

Of Course, Tables Vary as well, so your mileage may vary here as well...

Keep the Faith

[Jericho Alar]

It's definitely not quick nowadays. SR 4th edition is just as time-consuming as earlier editions, unless you have a lot of house rules.

There's definitely fewer rolls now - the simpler on/off nature of most hosts' security systems helps alot too.

there's still probably too many options but that could be improved slightly, probably by moving the various actions into explicit program rules text rather than the other way around (programs allowing specific actions vs actions requiring specific programs.) this might allow you to switch to a 'spellcasting' style of att+skill with program rating affecting effectiveness in addition to net hits, rather than the system we have currently.*



*full disclosure: I like that attributes don't have much to do with it, I think it's more accurate than a system that largely ignored the tools in favor of personal skill; but I recognize it creates counter-intuitive character choices.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

There's definitely fewer rolls now - the simpler on/off nature of most hosts' security systems helps alot too.

there's still probably too many options but that could be improved slightly, probably by moving the various actions into explicit program rules text rather than the other way around (programs allowing specific actions vs actions requiring specific programs.) this might allow you to switch to a 'spellcasting' style of att+skill with program rating affecting effectiveness in addition to net hits, rather than the system we have currently.*

I believe that your suggestion is one (or more) of the Optional rules outlined in Unwired... and they definitely make some sense in a lot of circumstances (especially making them functionally identical to the Magic System)...

Keep the Faith

[hahnsoo]

A hacking run in 3rd edition Shadowrun using the ACIFS and security sheafs did not take very long (if you prepared the ACIFS and security sheaf beforehand, which you may not have), until you get to Cybercombat. I can't put an actual time estimate on it, but this is speaking as an experienced 3rd edition GM that was able to pare it down to the essentials, though. I wager that once you throw Cybercombat into the mix, you'll get just as many dice rolls (since combat has changed very little in general from edition to edition). In fact, the time savings probably come from the fact that cybercombat has become gradually de-emphasized throughout SR editions.

You can potentially get MORE dice rolls in SR4 to do identical tasks, merely because of the way Extended tests work.

It still takes a long time to resolve basic hacking under SR4 rules, if you used ALL of the Matrix options that you should (and most GMs don't... who wants to manually roll eleventy Traces, resolve Agent VS IC cybercombat, and figure out on every turn what sort of shit goes down while the rest of the team is moving through meatspace?). The 3rd edition ACIFS and security sheaf worked just about as quickly, but it requires the GM to get familiar with it (just like a GM getting familiar with the SR4 hacking rules).

I'm not sure you can convince me that hacking runs smoothly in your games unless I actually sit in some of your games. So I'll just leave it at that.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A hacking run in 3rd edition Shadowrun using the ACIFS and security sheafs did not take very long (if you prepared the ACIFS and security sheaf beforehand, which you may not have), until you get to Cybercombat. I can't put an actual time estimate on it, but this is speaking as an experienced 3rd edition GM that was able to pare it down to the essentials, though. I wager that once you throw Cybercombat into the mix, you'll get just as many dice rolls (since combat has changed very little in general from edition to edition). In fact, the time savings probably come from the fact that cybercombat has become gradually de-emphasized throughout SR editions.

You can potentially get MORE dice rolls in SR4 to do identical tasks, merely because of the way Extended tests work.

It still takes a long time to resolve basic hacking under SR4 rules, if you used ALL of the Matrix options that you should (and most GMs don't... who wants to manually roll eleventy Traces, resolve Agent VS IC cybercombat, and figure out on every turn what sort of shit goes down while the rest of the team is moving through meatspace?). The 3rd edition ACIFS and security sheaf worked just about as quickly, but it requires the GM to get familiar with it (just like a GM getting familiar with the SR4 hacking rules).

I'm not sure you can convince me that hacking runs smoothly in your games unless I actually sit in some of your games. So I'll just leave it at that.

Hey no problems...

I understand about 3rd edition, I just never really liked those hacking rules, and 2nd edition was totally screwed up as far as economy of time went... as for SR4/SR4A, the rules work pretty well for what they do, and cybercombat is always the longest part of the process, as it has always been in previous editions... what tends to make it go so smoothly at our table is that hacking actions are interleaved with the meat actions of the other party members... so no one is bored and waiting... I know the rolls that I need to make, the Technomancer knowns the rolls he needs to make (My god, he accumulates a lot of rolls, what with Threading and the actual hacking rolls... Crazy Technomancers) and the GM knows his rolls... some of the behind the scenes rolls (Tracking, IC vs. IC rolls, etc.) have already been made before hand (and thresholds can tehn be verified on the fly), as the GM has our program stats, so that can be narrated fairly easily...

Because the action is interleaved, the flow is never "interrupted" for any given length of time, and everyone plays, which may lend a bit to the feeling that it is faster, as no one sits...

Anyway, That is my rationale for saying it seems faster... and I have to admit, I have yet to see a Hack take more than 10 or 15 minutes real time (even with the inevitable divergences, unless that is the purpose of the session, like a resonance realm quest) which I cannot say for previous editions... This may also have something to do with what is, in my opinion, a better combat resolution system as a whole... fights tend to end fairly quickly at our table, regardless of what mefium they occupy...

Keep the Faith

[Jericho Alar]

my issue was typically when the decker decided to slam down some node I didn't really have a sheaf for - eventually my fallback was default sheafs for green/orange/red etc. for when I needed a random node, but realistically it was alot of prep work you don't have to do anymore.

Cybercombat itself is about the same as its always been, really. I guess the one advantage to SR3 over 4 is that the system was generally more lethal so fights would be over a little faster; (the lack of agents and generally weakness of Daemons also meant that generally the PC was running fewer units on his side so the fights were frequently less complex)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

my issue was typically when the decker decided to slam down some node I didn't really have a sheaf for - eventually my fallback was default sheafs for green/orange/red etc. for when I needed a random node, but realistically it was alot of prep work you don't have to do anymore.

Cybercombat itself is about the same as its always been, really. I guess the one advantage to SR3 over 4 is that the system was generally more lethal so fights would be over a little faster; (the lack of agents and generally weakness of Daemons also meant that generally the PC was running fewer units on his side so the fights were frequently less complex)

I will have to agree with teh point about less opposing IC, Agents, Etc in SR3... though I still say the cybercombat is not any longer than it used to be (and I believe it is a little shorter in SR4, but I have already explained why this perception might exist at our table), as combat was always the longest part of hacking into a system...

Keep the Faith

[Jericho Alar]

I will have to agree with teh point about less opposing IC, Agents, Etc in SR3... though I still say the cybercombat is not any longer than it used to be (and I believe it is a little shorter in SR4, but I have already explained why this perception might exist at our table), as combat was always the longest part of hacking into a system...

Keep the Faith

we've found combat in general takes about one more successful hit (so usually about 2 more rounds) both in the matrix and in the meat; we'd concluded the system is slightly less lethal in SR4 than it was in SR3; I think most of it is due to missing the discretionary dice pools that let you frontload your damage.

[edit] comparatively speaking matrix combat is faster (e.g. average rounds of matrix combat vs. average rounds of meat combat.); but comparing matrix combat across editions it's slightly slower, at least at our table. (our table in this case being our SR3 decker as SR4 GM and the SR3 gm (me) as the SR4 hacker; so I'd like to think we're pretty quick; we also have an otaku and a TM, he's played by the same guy in both games.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

we've found combat in general takes about one more successful hit (so usually about 2 more rounds) both in the matrix and in the meat; we'd concluded the system is slightly less lethal in SR4 than it was in SR3; I think most of it is due to missing the discretionary dice pools that let you frontload your damage.

[edit] comparatively speaking matrix combat is faster (e.g. average rounds of matrix combat vs. average rounds of meat combat.); but comparing matrix combat across editions it's slightly slower, at least at our table. (our table in this case being our SR3 decker as SR4 GM and the SR3 gm (me) as the SR4 hacker; so I'd like to think we're pretty quick; we also have an otaku and a TM, he's played by the same guy in both games.

And I fully willing to admit that tables differ...

Odd though, we have found that combat in the meat is far quicker and much more lethal... this may have a lot to do with the difference in how dice pools are constructed in teh 2 editions... when you are always shooting someone with a TN of 9+ (in SR3), combats tend to take a while (Our GM tends/tended to use every ranged modifier in combat (against both sides) which drug out combat a LOT), while you are now just adding and subtracting dice pool modifiers, anbd many of them can actually be negated with the appropriate equipment... so firefights are truly deadly in comparison... for example, In SR3, no one I ever played with really used light pistols as tehy were deemed too ineffective, so everyone carried Heavy Pistols at a minimum. Now, in SR4, I routinely prefer the Light pistol, and have easily killed opposition, even targets in moderate levels of armor, using such a weapon, and in pretty short order... things are different, when you always have a target of 5 and soaks are at a target of 5... how often did you see a great hit in SR3 reduced to target 2 to soak due to armor... does not happen anymore... target is always a 5... this is a HUGE difference in the lethality...

Anyway...

Keep the Faith

[Jericho Alar]

it probably is table differences then; although I agree that sub-heavy pistols are much more lethal in SR4 than they were in SR3. (we mostly find the discrepancy in the automatics - a well aimed auto burst with enough recoil comp behind it often caused deadly damage even after soak in sr3)

although I'm surprised you were getting TN9+ routinely - with a smartlink, some recoil comp, and some vision mods the base TN should be 2 in almost all situations before running / cover / weather / lighting mods - and weather and lighting were almost universally countered by the right eyeware. (running and cover add up fast - but I'd be surprised to see them get much past 7 - if they did my table generally just took some aim actions to bring it down to 7 and then blew everything in one shot: full combat pool and spend a karma to reroll failures and any BF/FA weapon other than a machine pistol would take them down in one go typically.)

while soak tns were frequently 2, it's hard to soak S damage with 6 successes behind it (18 dice with failures rolled twice averages about 5.5 successes against TN7) appreciably; and fights typically ended [edit]targets went down[/edit] after two good hits at our table.

in SR4 we're finding it's typically about 3 hits - I wonder if part of our 'slower' feeling is that players aren't firing quite as fast as possible (aim actions may not be as beneficial in SR4 as they were in SR3 over tn7?) although there is a minor reduction in the lethality of most automatics. (I'd guess about 1 less box of damage on average overall, combined with the on average one box larger health pools.. )

[Thanee]

WOW, seems like a lot of book keeping, and a lot of effort...

I actually don't think it's that much. The biggest bookkeeping factor is a single number you need to track. That should be doable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It just makes the rather arbitrary responses a bit more structured. In the SR4 book, it just lists some response options that could happen, but the GM is left on his or her own when something will happen or what it will be. Also it only mentions that a system could have several nodes and IC of various kinds to defend them. This simply offers more structure and guidance in that regard.

You can still make quick Matrix runs, if you just want to see if the Hacker can get a certain piece of information, that will take no longer.

But you can also make more tense Matrix runs (which will obviously take longer), without having to make up everything yourself.

Bye
Thanee

[Prime Mover]

I still have a problem with the passcode system. It takes longer to do checks the stronger the passcode and can be hacked normally. Been considering adding the optional security tally feature from unwired for this matrix defense.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I actually don't think it's that much. The biggest bookkeeping factor is a single number you need to track. That should be doable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It just makes the rather arbitrary responses a bit more structured. In the SR4 book, it just lists some response options that could happen, but the GM is left on his or her own when something will happen or what it will be. Also it only mentions that a system could have several nodes and IC of various kinds to defend them. This simply offers more structure and guidance in that regard.

You can still make quick Matrix runs, if you just want to see if the Hacker can get a certain piece of information, that will take no longer.

But you can also make more tense Matrix runs (which will obviously take longer), without having to make up everything yourself.

Bye
Thanee

I can see that... I will have to ponder...
Thanks for the Info...

Keep the Faith