Cyberware Stats vs. In Game Knowledge, Consumer Reports: Bioware Edition Options

[Luddite]

I've read a few topics where people (probably GMs) bash the idea that some players "just want to get the best gear and cyberware." My response to this is always, "and?" Personally, if I were going to have someone cut me open and stick shit in my spine to make me move more quickly, I would damn well make sure that I was getting the best product on the market, but then, I've been a Neo Anarchist since way back. That being said, how much knowledge do you figure your character has about the various pieces of gear? How does "+2 reaction, +1 initative pass" translate into "real world" language? This week in Consumer Reports, we put the top three reaction enhancers through their paces! 'Cause if characters do have access to roughly the same information that we do it only makes sense that people would optimize their choices.

I mean, in the real world you don't have a clear distinction between how much damage a given hand gun does. True, you know how much energy the bullet transfers, the amount of recoil and muzzle climb under certain conditions, etc., but when it comes down to it you don't really know which gun is "better." Does anyone else think there might just be some confusion among the cybered community as to which reaction enhances (for instance) provides the biggest boost?

[ludomastro]

[Ancient History]

Oh sure. No doubt many people throw around stats and models. You have to remember that most of the gear in the SR4 main book corresponds to general models - it doesn't count knock-offs, flash jobs, corporate clones or any of that. The difference between an AresArmtech Predator IV CyberGun (Mark 311a) and the KombatLimb High Caliber Optian B might be zero in game terms, but the in-game debates would be the same as comparing personal mp3 players produced by Sony and Panasonic - physical specs, recall orders, ease of customization, user interface, warranty policy, width of datapath, nanosecond response time, etc.

[Gamble]

One way that I also see runners knowing about product is if they have seen, worked with, or by word of mouth. He could have worked with Jill the Gilette who had some upgrades done and talked shop with her. Or he went up against Sammy the Street Sam and got his ass royally handed to him. There are also all of the catalogs, screamsheets, and datahavens that runners periodically check out for the latest and greatest just like people check out Guns and Ammo, Popular Technology, or their favorite car mag to check out what is new on the market.

[cetiah]

It doesn't seem all that different to me than having dental work done. You'll have basic choices and alternatives, with the pros and cons of each readily apparent. It's not just that Rating 2 wired reflexes is a better product than Rating 1 wired reflexes, but that the Rating 2 is a much more complex procedure for those that can afford it. It might go something like this, "Hey, look at this state of the art bone replacement. Only one million nuyen. What? Can't afford that? Okay, how about this basic 400,000 procedure? Still too high? Okay, let's talk about some basic bone lacing options."

[ornot]

I agree with AH. The models offered in the core book are general examples. The system is not fine enough to distinguish between similar models, nor does it have to be.

There are many varieties of car around today, for example, which might have slightly different top speeds, or fuel efficiency, but we can still acknowledge that they may be grouped together. You have luxury cars, hot hatches, minivans, sports cars, and in game terms its far easier to just give all the vehicles in one class the same stats, as the differences within that class are inadequate to justify a change.

In terms of 'ware that means there are a range of implants and options, but anyone that does their research can tell that that one implant belongs in the Wired reflexes 1 class and another in the Wired reflexes 2 class.

Still, getting 'ware is a big investment in terms of money and your soul, so I do require justification for why a character would do that from the player.

[Thanee]

[Luddite]

That's always how I've thought about it, but then I hear people whining about "all you want is the best cyberware" and I start to wonder. If cyberware really can be benchmarked reliably then there's no reason for a character to not go out and buy the absolute best cyberware they can afford.

Thanks for the input, this was mostly to resolve my own doubts. I was reading some posts bitching about how players of Street Sams "just want to get the highest reaction and body" and thought "well, yeah, that's kinda the point of cyberware" then thought, "wait, am I a munchkin?" Given the responses, I figure I just habitually play non-retards.

[TBRMInsanity]

I wanted to address two points on the forum.
1. Different models:
One of the best things in SR1 was in the Rigger Black Book. In there each model of car had about 4-5 other models of cars that had the same stats. This was great because as a player you could say I'm driving a S-K/GMC Roadwarrior instead of a Ford-American Bison. SR should do this more often with equipment.

2. Cyberware and levels:
I see two reasons to have different levels for cyberware. First because not all people can afford the best and have to settle for second (or third) best. This would be similar to the different treatments available to people for something like cancer (surgery, drugs, or a mix). Second, in gameplay terms, the more higher the level the more of an effect the device has on the character. There would be studies out there, presented on the newsnets, that would warn people of the harms of getting a lvl 3 wired reflexes. "Side effects include social retardation, induced tourette's syndrome, and death." GMs should award players that play up these side effects in their characters, especially if they are during a mission.

If you ever get a chance there is an essay in Cybertechnology (SR2) about the cybermancine processes that explains what goes through the mind of people that get cybered. It is a must read.

[Thanee]

[Luddite]

[Anymage]

I'm seeing two issues at play here.

The first has to do with game balance. If playing a fast character is more effective point for point than playing a strong character, then of course people will go for the former most of the time. In extreme cases, when one archetype is more effective than others, whole character concepts can be overlooked by most players because nobody wants to be stuck playing the inferior character. Trying to browbeat other players into going for suboptimal builds really holds no water, and browbeating in general is a poor way to keep friends and influence others.

The second one, about cyberware in general, has already been answered. Characters have a finite amount of cash and essence to spend, so they might just end up with wired reflexes 2 rather than the 3 they wanted. Lower grades are there for the characters who can't afford, for whatever means, the top of the line. And if a certain piece of 'ware ends up being more effective for the essence/nuyen costs than another, that's the fault of the world (as created by the designers) for putting out subpar, overpriced goods. GM's who want those items used more should make them more attractive, not attempt to harangue other players.

[Teulisch]

i feel like everyone is overlooking something basic here.

Knowsofts. you chip a knowsoft, and now your an informed consumer. you just bypassed a lot of tedious work in actualy studying and learning. Sure, its not going to list 100% of things.... but you get one companys models, with comparisons vs inferior models the competition makes. its a catalog in your head. And its a service most clinics offer, allowing a free sample so you can make an 'informed' choice. of course, having the actual skill is much better, as then you would know the company that you saw teh catalog for has serious problems in matinence AFTER 3 years 1 month (3 year warrenty, natch), and any peice not listed that a competitor makes, is probably much better. heck, we can probably show you some nice sims of what fun those upgrades can do for you!

when you consider all that information, yes you will know how much a difference matters. If Karl Kombatmage had a guy showing off how cool the model Y ware is compared to a brand X thug, thats advertising at work. now you want brand Y... although X may be more reliable if you do your homework.

a nice way to deal with this, may be to say the book only lists 'standard', then make up a few other brands with pros and cons relative to that. so one may give an extra +1 in some circumstances because its overclocked, and breaks easier. another may be known for durability, but sacrifice performance- perhaps its +2 bod -1 agil cyberlimbs.

[WhiskeyMac]

I liked the variable impact that Cyberpunk 2020 solely for the fact that it represented a randomness that Shadowrun doesn't really address. Wired Reflexes 2 takes out 3 essence, no matter what type of metatype you are, if you're magically active or if you went to a delta clinic and got it installed by THE best cybersurgeon in the world who had magical healing backup the whole procedure. The only way to represent that is by implant grade or by using the SR3 surgery options which doesn't really do it for me. I just find it kinda weird that people are complex beings that respond to trauma in different ways except for when it comes to transplants. Oops, oh well.

[Thanee]

Well, it would also be kinda silly, if the best doctor in the best clinic (through a bad roll) gave you a 4 Essence Loss, while the sleazy street doc managed to only have you lose 2 Essence. ;)

I like, if it depends on the doctor's skill with appropriate circumstance modifiers for tools and such (so have the doctor roll and then set a threshold for standard Essence Loss, every hit below or above adds or subtracts some from the total).

Bye
Thanee

[Ravor]

Well that plus I find it hard to believe that a sleezy street-doc is going to have access to Beta/Delta Grade Ware *OR* that your SOTA cybersurgeon is going to install anything less then Beta in the first place so I always figured that part of the 'saved' Essense from higher grades of ware was from the skill of the surgeon and the quality of the facilities.

Although if I remember correctly in Cyberpunk 2020 Humanity Points can be recovered, but I know that if I were playing I wouldn't like it if an unlucky roll crippled and/or killed my character on the operating table in a system where you only get so much Essense and once gone its gone forever.

[knasser]

[eidolon]

You might also be missing one simple reason that some people (probably GMs) complain about the players/characters only wanting the best cyberware.

If all the players want out of the game is "faster better stronger" gear/ware, I don't want anything to do with them. They're missing the other 98% of why I play Shadowrun. D&D works great if all you want out of a game is kill, loot, upgrade, kill, loot, upgrade. (So does SR if run that way, but I suspect that this is the disconnect. We don't complain that they players want the best gear they can get, we complain if that's all they want.)

That aside, I imagine the in game debates over 'ware are much like debates between paintball players, airsoft folks, car nuts, <insert hobby here>. Mostly pointless posturing wrapped around minuscule details with little practical bearing on reality.

[WhiskeyMac]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it would sound kinda like the more realism debates we have here on Dumpshock. :grinbig:

[Andoru-san]

I suppose it's important to discern between IC and OOC dialogue. I find that those playing sams are into chrome for the same reason a car nut is into cars; it's their art. They express themselves through it. Maybe Cyber-Sam can't afford that shiny new cyberarm, but Car-guy Carl can't afford that diablo either. They'll still talk your ear off about it the first chance they get, and if they had the money to buy it, they probably would. Granted, your average runner makes a little more cred than an auto-mechanic...

While I'm ranting, I have advice for GMs and players; Don't be afraid to spice up the game with different model names. Seeing a GMC Centurion mixed in with the comets every once in a while really helps you paint a more vivid picture in the mind. Plus, so many runners sport predators that I just read it as "generic heavy pistol" now. Finally, if you rely on some piece of equipment, the advice counts double. If you're practically the only one sporting an FN Lightning, you're probably going to see that gun as a friend, rather than an object.

...all IMHO, of course. :)

[TBRMInsanity]

[stevebugge]

Slightly tangental here, but do you think that truth in advertising laws are mostly a thing of the past in the 2070's? Basically how honest are the corps when it comes to marketing their products? Would it be assumed that they did give the correct specs, or would accuracy be subject to the target markets expectations?

[cetiah]

[Moon-Hawk]

[stevebugge]