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> Magic rules in 4th edition, A few questions from a noob ...
treehugger
post Mar 30 2007, 01:54 PM
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My group is creating their characters, and a few questions have came up especially regarding magic.
First, a shaman wants to have the increased reflexes spell. Since to get the max effect (+3 initiative passes) the caster needs to net 4 successes, is there a point to cast it above force 4 ?
Thus, would a sustaining focus level 4 would suffice in every case to sustain the spell ?
It might be stated somewhere in the books, but i musnt have seen it right.
The barrier spells add the net success as barrier rating. I suppose i must have misread and its force of the barrier + net successes ?
Is the armor spell the same ? or does it add just net success ?
From a game balance perspective, dont you think that the fact its cumulative with worn armor make this spell absolutely overpowered ?

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Moon-Hawk
post Mar 30 2007, 02:05 PM
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Regarding increased reflexes:
In terms of effect, there's no difference.
In terms of the durability of the spell to resist encounters with wards, counterspelling, being targeted by spells, etc more force is better.

I don't want to comment on the rest until I have a chance to look at books.
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Thanee
post Mar 30 2007, 02:18 PM
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QUOTE (Treehuger @ Mar 30 2007, 02:54 PM)
My group is creating their characters, and a few questions have came up especially regarding magic.
First, a shaman wants to have the increased reflexes spell. Since to get the max effect (+3 initiative passes) the caster needs to net 4 successes, is there a point to cast it above force 4 ?

No compelling reason, no.

QUOTE
Thus, would a sustaining focus level 4 would suffice in every case to sustain the spell ?


Yes. But you cannot get one at character generation.

QUOTE
The barrier spells add the net success as barrier rating. I suppose i must have misread and its force of the barrier + net successes ?


Not sure. It surely seems a bit low. :)

QUOTE
Is the armor spell the same ? or does it add just net success ?


Your net hits. Force limits how many net hits you can have.

QUOTE
From a game balance perspective, dont you think that the fact its cumulative with worn armor make this spell absolutely overpowered ?


Three levels of armor means one DV less on average when you resist damage. That's good, but not too powerful.

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Thanee
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Grinder
post Mar 30 2007, 02:30 PM
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QUOTE (Thanee)
QUOTE
From a game balance perspective, dont you think that the fact its cumulative with worn armor make this spell absolutely overpowered ?


Three levels of armor means one DV less on average when you resist damage. That's good, but not too powerful.

Don't forget that the target is shimmering and clearly visible to everyone.
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Thanee
post Mar 30 2007, 02:35 PM
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Yeah, screaming "HERE, SHOOT ME!" isn't always the best option in SR. :D

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Thanee
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treehugger
post Mar 30 2007, 03:08 PM
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Always shoot the mage first uh ?
That's what my granpa used to say ...
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Moon-Hawk
post Mar 30 2007, 03:16 PM
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I agree with Thanee. Barrier has a barrier rating of Force+net hits.
Armor is just hits. (up to Force, as always)
It doesn't encumber and it stacks with worn armor. It's powerful, but not overwhelmingly so, IMO.
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Grinder
post Mar 30 2007, 04:47 PM
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QUOTE (Treehuger)
Always shoot the mage first uh ?
That's what my granpa used to say ...

Kill the adept first. Quickly. That's what I say.
My point was more that a character with an armored spell cast on him is clearly visible, which is not always a bright (pun intendend) idea. ;)
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X-Kalibur
post Mar 30 2007, 05:04 PM
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Forget the armor spell, go with the deflection spell from Street Magic or combat sense. The deflection spell makes me think of Fortune from MGS2 though.
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Moon-Hawk
post Mar 30 2007, 05:09 PM
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True, deflection is subtler, but IIRC it won't help with explosions or melee. (explosions don't count as ranged attacks, do they?)
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X-Kalibur
post Mar 30 2007, 05:13 PM
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True, only armor and basic reaction would help you against an explosion, but combat sense gives you bonus die against ranged and melee attacks
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deek
post Mar 30 2007, 06:26 PM
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Yeah, I have found in cases like this there is only one reason to up the force, and that is if you are worried about it being countered or dispelled. If neither of those are things you worry about at the time you cast the spell, just go with force 4.
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Grinder
post Mar 30 2007, 09:49 PM
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QUOTE (X-Kalibur)
Forget the armor spell, go with the deflection spell from Street Magic or combat sense. The deflection spell makes me think of Fortune from MGS2 though.

I'm thinking of Fortune too. :D
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Glyph
post Mar 31 2007, 03:11 AM
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You didn't misread the barrier spells - it's net hits. Nothing stopping you from house-ruling it differently, though.
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TheOOB
post Mar 31 2007, 05:53 AM
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The armor spells not all it's cracked up to be, since it's sustained some of it's effectiveness is immediatly lost (unless you invest in a sustaining focus which can be expensive), and with a high armor value the vast majority of your damage will be stun, which might cause problums if you start taking drain damage on top of it.
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The Entropic Wiz...
post Mar 31 2007, 06:59 AM
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QUOTE
The armor spells not all it's cracked up to be, since it's sustained some of it's effectiveness is immediatly lost (unless you invest in a sustaining focus which can be expensive), and with a high armor value the vast majority of your damage will be stun, which might cause problums if you start taking drain damage on top of it.


I believe it was stated in another thread that dishing out all that stun damage is really far more efficient in many cases, as you'll have a much easier time knocking out the troll in his military gear than trying to punch a bullet through it and killing him.

I think that was a run-on sentence. Hm. :grinbig:
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Ravor
post Mar 31 2007, 07:00 AM
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Yes, which is why I House Ruled that Stun Damage downgrades as well to 1/2 damage rounded down.
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The Entropic Wiz...
post Mar 31 2007, 07:08 AM
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Oh, but that takes all the fun out of life. What's more satisfying than to see that troll in his freaking quasi-mecha-suit keel over after you've pumped a couple dozen magazines of lead into the same area on his chest?

Then again... it would suck ass if it happened to you, as a runner. But hey, it just makes you more careful, right? :D
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Ravor
post Mar 31 2007, 04:03 PM
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Well actually I did it to encourage the use of lethal attacks on both sides of the screen, but thats just me. :cyber:

Well of course the fact that I also introduced a Combat Drug that mimics the effects of a Pain Editor, albeit with side-effects also tends to help... *winks*
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Andoru-san
post Apr 1 2007, 01:26 AM
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It may be worth mentioning explicitly that the armor spell can downgrade physical damage to stun while combat sense cannot (not sure about deflection, have not read it.) Not every Mage can cast heal, so stun damage might be a lot more attractive (Hours vs. days.) Plus, it keeps those pesky bulletholes out of your clothes when the holdout scores a hit. :)
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Glyph
post Apr 1 2007, 01:36 AM
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Combat Sense doesn't directly downgrade physical damage to stun, but by giving you more dice to dodge, it makes it less likely that an attack will stage up, so that heavy pistol is less likely to beat your armor jacket. Plus, it makes it more likely that you will completely dodge an attack. No damage is even better than stun damage.

The Deflection spell has the same advantage, except that it is only good against ranged attacks, not melee.
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treehugger
post Apr 2 2007, 07:04 AM
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QUOTE (Glyph)
You didn't misread the barrier spells - it's net hits. Nothing stopping you from house-ruling it differently, though.

I've re read the books, and according to it, it's just net success as barrier rating.
Do some of you play with force + net hits for barriers ? would it create some imbalance ?
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fistandantilus4....
post Apr 2 2007, 07:09 AM
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Then you'd have really strong barriers that would take some serious artillery to get through, as opposed to the semi-manageable ones now.

Think of it this way. A mage can throw to spells at once, but he has to split his sspell pol which limits it's effectiveness. But if a mage can throw up two force 6 barriers at once, and only need one success on each to make two force 7 barriers, it changes how it works considerably.
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Garrowolf
post Apr 2 2007, 09:08 AM
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I would house rule that it takes two successes per IP for increased reflexes, if I allowed the spell in my games at all. I would also not allow them to cast spells faster, just attack or move actions as the increased speed it would seem to me would make it harder to hold your concentration. They can be like the street sammie or they can be a spell caster but not both at the same time. I would rather have 20 trolls with Panther Cannons then one magic user with this spell.
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knasser
post Apr 2 2007, 06:59 PM
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QUOTE (Glyph)
You didn't misread the barrier spells - it's net hits. Nothing stopping you from house-ruling it differently, though.


Why house rule it? Net hits is still capped by Force. I don't know where people are getting this Force + Net hits because that's not in the book. You get a point of armour and barrier rating per hit. A barrier rating of 3 is equivalent to a plaster wall or internal wooden door. And if you did really well and got 7 hits, then you've got the equivalent of hardwood. Seeing as you can't really manouver a 2m diameter dome very well, I don't see it as that unbalancing. It's very useful in the hands of a smart player, but that is all.

As to Increase Reflexes. Meh. There are plenty of problems with walking around with Quickened or Focus bound spells. Especially with the latter as you really do not want to be casting and recasting this spell. The spell is good. But characters have to have something that is good. You can't smear everything down to the same level all the time.
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