 Just went through an insane battle., What could we have done better? |
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 Apr 11 2007, 12:54 AM
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#101
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 10-September 05 From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America Member No.: 7,727  |
As I have said before, the fact that you KNOW about the vampire and can tell everyone could become a bargaining chip. Vamps have enemies.
Hey, you could even try to contact the Vatican or search for any descendants of Dr. Van Helsing... Maybe it's in everybody's interest to keep things quiet, maybe she just wants you to do something for her... Plus, it would help if you KNEW why did the vampire take your friend in the first place. Information, information, information. What you don't know can kill you, and that's especially true for shadowrunners. Boy, I would love to play a decker in your game! Sorry, hacker, age shows! Cheers, Max |
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Apr 11 2007, 04:08 AM
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#102
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
I don't know about negotiation with this situation. It doesn't sound like they got a ransom call within a viable space of time (24 hours). That doesn't bode well for the kidnapee.
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Apr 11 2007, 03:21 PM
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#103
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
I would love to have you join the game, that and a lot of the other fellow dumpshockers here. You guys are great! I think we are really being destroyed here by lack of legwork. The main problem seems to be here that we lost our face, which had a lot of useful contacts, and the hacker character we do have is new and doesn't know what his character is capable of. So, unless he is somehow presented the opportunity by the GM or one of us telling him to do so, it just isn't going to happen. I think working the angle about blackmailing the vampire might work. What would Lonestar do if we reported her? Do you need a valid SIN to report a crime? What about doing it anonymously? I say Lonestar because it seems it would be the easiest rather than trying to track down Van Helsing or the Vatican. Though I wouldn't think the Vatican would be difficult. There must be some local anti-vamp groups in Seattle we could alert. Would the Vatican have squads or representatives in Seattle? |
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Apr 11 2007, 03:29 PM
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#104
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
Well, right there is a job for your hacker...I mean, intercept some communication traffic and spoof a call coming from the dispatch and get some LoneStar on premises yourself. That would create enough of a distraction to work you way in to save your friend as well.
Finding a local anti-vamp group could work as well. I just think getting more people there, in general, is going to help a lot. Put the onus back on the vampire (ie, GM) to figure out how to handle things. If you have a couple squads of LoneStar and your ready for action team there, I would have to think things would go differently the second time around! |
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Apr 11 2007, 03:55 PM
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#105
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Lone Star may not do anything. Being a vampire is not, in and of itself, a crime. If she were a poor downscale vamp that would be one thing, but for a rich upscale vamp she'd have to be draining her neighbors without their consent, or worse.
This, of course, depends on the flavor of our game. Whether or not vampires have civil rights or are treated as animals is a question that is up for debate, as well. Martin DeVries is the guy you want to talk to if you have vampire problems. He hates the bloodsuckers so much that he intentionally become one so that he can kill them better. That said, he does tend to follow his own agenda and probably has biger fish to fry. |
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Apr 11 2007, 05:36 PM
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#106
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
True, they may not do anything, but the idea is that their hacker can get LoneStar involved in a number of creative ways and the whole point is to run a distraction and act while the known vampire is reacting to the diversion.
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Apr 11 2007, 06:24 PM
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#107
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
In fact, it is... because having HMHVV is notifiable - and those that do end up in quarantine. |
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Apr 11 2007, 09:47 PM
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#108
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
:proof:
There is very little reason to quarantine a vampire. The only way to spread the disease is to kill with essence drain. Vampires can survive without killing and most individuals have no need for the first five points of their essence. Heck, most individuals would pay good money to get drained by a vampire, so even fears of vampire predation would be low. |
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Apr 11 2007, 10:17 PM
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#109
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
True, but impaling them on a wooden stake and burning them in broad sunlight is not a modern method of dealing with them. So basically, one locks them up and waits until the problem solves itself... they already died, so the don't have any rights anyways. |
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Apr 12 2007, 12:12 AM
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#110
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
If they have enough money to afford a house in an A neighborhood, then they have rights. Barrens squatters are the ones without rights. If your check clears you can eat babies in front of an officer and he'll ask if you want any condiments.
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Apr 12 2007, 02:00 AM
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#111
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737 |
In Shadows of Asia, pg. 150, there's a comment from a poster name Laot about "a hidden cannibalistic restaurant where the deranged ultra-loaded eat young people alive, not because they need it (they're not ghouls or wendigo), but just because they can." If I ever get a good team together that have characters with actual morals, that restaurant is going down. |
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Apr 12 2007, 02:11 AM
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#112
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: 29-December 06 Member No.: 10,483 |
Yes, definitely. I mean I'm completely, and utterly okay with Ghouls eatting human flesh, it is an actual physical *need* that they don't have a choice about. They are afflicted, Vamps are a grey area really. However eatting human flesh without need is pretty much saying you are sick bastard that needs to be exterminated.
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Apr 12 2007, 02:20 AM
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#113
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Question, where does the line get drawn? At your own 'race'? Meta-humanity? "Sapient" Creatures? "Pets"? Anything with a face? (Remember that cannibalism as a form of respecting the dead has been practiced in some cultures on Earth.)
Would the same ban apply if the meat were cloned? Is killing someone for food any worse then killing someone for their organs? In fact is killing someone for their organs/food worse then killing someone because they are in your way or has something that you want/need? |
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Apr 12 2007, 02:38 AM
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#114
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737 |
Personally, for both me and the characters I play, the line is drawn at "innocents and non-combatants"
To put that in more explicit terms, unconscious guard? no kill. OC enforcer? shoot. Child? Anyone want to mess with it, they have to go through me. Tamanous? Expect catastrophic additions to be made to their skull's cross ventilation. Cops are getting into a grey area... if I know the cop and know he's dirty/corrupt/evil, yeah, I'd do a public service and take out some trash. But if I don't know him or I know that he's a good guy that just so happens to be shooting at me, I'll pull out the gel rounds. But, yeah, while those are my guidelines, I go on a case by case basis, judging on their actions and, most importantly, their intent. in terms of the case of the cannibalistic restaurant, there's no need, there's no reason... just some sickos getting their kinks out. Ergo, both their actions and their intent are bad, which means that it's time for the ultra-loaded cannibals in question to come down with a bad case of dead, and for the restaurant owners to get 9mm brain hemorrhages. |
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Apr 12 2007, 02:45 AM
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#115
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
What about unconcious guards who got a good look at you during a run where (like most) you really, really didn't need to be seen?
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Apr 12 2007, 02:48 AM
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#116
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: 29-December 06 Member No.: 10,483 |
Yes, the restaurant isn't doing this as a rather weird religious practice. Which again is a rather grey area for me This exploitation of the poor to a degree that old social revolutionaries would have once used it as a metaphor. These guys are taking "A Modest Proposal" literally. That is all kinds of screwed up. Also clonal flesh is I suppose alright, but given cultural taboos probabely means the person who really wants that is a bit deviant.
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Apr 12 2007, 03:16 AM
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#117
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Ok, I guess what I trying to ask is this...
Outside of Self Defense and possibly Revenge should the reason for a murder matter? Are any of these situations worse then the others? A) Killing Jane Wageslave because she saw you and might be able to identify you later? B) Killing Jane Wageslave because she has just walked in on you and is about to trigger an alarm that would bring the heat down? C) Killing Jane Wageslave because you need a chip that has been implanted inside her? D) Killing Jane Wageslave because someone wants to send a message to her husband? E) Killing Jane Wageslave because someone wants to eat her liver with a side of onion? F) Killing Jane Wageslave because Mr Johnson's daughter will die unless she gets one of her vital organs? G) Killing Jane Wageslave because she has taken out loans from some very bad people and is now refusing to pay? --- The reason I'm asking is because in the end run, Jane is just as dead if she was in the wrong place at the wrong time as she is if your Johnson's real name is Mr. Lector. And unless the canibal restaurant serves its dishes still alive then in the end all they really are is committing murder. And in a game where you are a very bad man who shoots people in the face for money why is it worse to kill Jane Wageslave then it is to kill Joe Guard just because Joe carries a gun? After all you are the one who is forcing Joe into a situation where he might have to shoot you, not the other way around. |
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Apr 12 2007, 03:23 AM
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#118
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The line comes when they are still alive, certainly not consenting, and there are other options available to you. If the meals are selling themselves for money, then that's just capitalism. There's nothing wrong with that and anyone who says otherwise is a stinkin' Commie. But, if they don't consent then that's forced reallocation of property (namely edible flesh) and that's Communism. Personally, I believe in extending this philosophy as far as possible. If you're a cattle rancher then you should have a magician use mindlink on you and your cows so that you can ask them for permission to slaughter and eat them. |
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Apr 12 2007, 03:27 AM
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#119
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: 29-December 06 Member No.: 10,483 |
Well obviously wet work is generally not considered good. However its most likely less evil to kill someone and take there organ for one very simple reason. You *need* your organs. You don't need to eat someones liver. However end of the day killing in all of those categories is pretty much evil. Though still due to it being almost completely unneccesary the liver eatting is pretty damn evil, and so probabely wins.
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Apr 12 2007, 03:31 AM
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#120
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Fair enough Serial_Peacemaker, but then what about the difference between Jane Wageslave and Joe Guard? Why should it be considered any less "evil" to kill Joe just because he has a gun?
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Apr 12 2007, 03:37 AM
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#121
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: 29-December 06 Member No.: 10,483 |
I never made the argument one was morally superior to another. Obviously both are just poor saps doing their jobs. I was simply stating that eatting another human being simply because you want to see what it is like, is pretty much beyond the pale.
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Apr 12 2007, 03:39 AM
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#122
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737 |
...and this would be the reason why my characters refrain from wetwork. Killing Yaks, mobsters and Vory are things that I (or at least my characters) don't have problems with. (One of them, in particular, has a grudge against the Yaks that started with the slaughter of his old team and is currently at Him: 29 Them: 0) But answering those scenarios: A: That's what doses of Laes are for. B: Two Words: Stun Batons. C: And this is why every good runner needs a good shadowdoc contact. D: There are easier and less messy means of sending messages to other people--my personal favorite is the dagger embedded in the headboard of the bed. E: If anyone tried to hired Sneak, Galen or Hawk for that kind of job, they would be left, trussed up on a bed of lettuce with an apple in their mouth, at the nearest ghoul nest (and with their eyes taped open and pointed in the direction of the entrance and a potent stimulant in their veins) because there's no justice quite like the poetic kind. F: I wouldn't take jobs like that, it's just that simple. And for the record, if you'll look carefully at the quote from Shadows of Asia that I made you'll see that, yes, that restaurant does serve their dishes alive. |
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Apr 12 2007, 04:01 AM
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#123
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Ok fair enough bibliophile20 but I'll ask you the same question I asked Serial_Peacemaker, why is killing Jane Wageslave any less "evil" then killing Joe Guard just because Joe happens to have a gun? <<<<<>>>>>
And I'm asking why is it worse to murder someone because you want to taste their flesh then it is to murder someone because you want their coat or shoes? |
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Apr 12 2007, 04:17 AM
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#124
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737 |
I believe that the typical cynical quote for this "Ye takes ye money, ye takes ye chances." While I don't entirely agree with that (and is also why my characters often have gel rounds in their secondary guns) the point is, Joe knew the risks when he was hired for that job (although admittedly he might not have had much of a choice)--in essence, it's in the job description. Jane's job description typically has her facing nothing more dangerous than tripping on a fold in the carpet. Now, while I have to admit that the idea of killing random corp guards strictly because they were hired to protect the facility that my team and I were hired to break into is disquieting to me, it is still a valid point. However, I'm also one of those guys who tries to keep the body count low--aside from the moral aspects, having the Star after you because you've fragged too many people can really put a crimp in your day. (The exception comes, however, with Hawk and the Yakuza; the most memorable run thus far went as thus: Hawk and one other runner walk into a bunraku parlor. Ten minutes later, three runners walk out of the parlor, with twenty-one freshly liberated bunraku girls--and with thirteen dead Yakuza behind them, seven with headshots) |
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Apr 12 2007, 05:53 AM
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#125
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 28-August 03 Member No.: 5,551 |
If the question is Joe Guard vs. Jane Wageslave, eventually the question of Jack Soldier will come into play. From a most gut-level response, there's a difference between killing somebody in the heat of the moment and killing somebody in cold blood, and putting a few rounds into Joe Guard is less about specifically wanting him dead and more about generally wanting him to stop shooting in your general direction.
Of course, this helps to clarify that there are two general sorts of 'runners out there. The first sort would gladly commit murder or morally equivalent acts if the price were right, the other sort generally has nonlethal attacks handy for inconvenient bystanders. The question might be raised why the former type would become shadowrunners in the first place, to which I'm afraid the only real answers are of a metagame nature. |
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