 How Sociopathic should Shadowrunners be?, Was just wondering what ya thought. |
  |
 Apr 4 2007, 04:58 PM
Post
#26
|
|||
|
Ain Soph Aur  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600  |
The post says female player. |
||
 |
 
|
||
|
Apr 4 2007, 05:19 PM
Post
#27
|
|
|
Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
True, but I've seen people confuse player vs character in posts before when in a hurry, and I've been guilty of a same more then my own fair share as well...
Still either way it smacks of sexism to me at least. |
|
|
|
|
Apr 4 2007, 05:39 PM
Post
#28
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 321 Joined: 7-March 07 From: Hapeville, GA Member No.: 11,175 |
Actually, while a sociopath does not value social approval (much like a psychopath) and doesn't form emotional attachments like other people, they by necessity become excellent at reading and manipulating emotions in others. The sociopath will 'make friends' with you and will seem to be your friend in all ways - but the reason they are doing it is specifically to earn that resource of a person who will spring for that replacement heart you mentioned. As for negative reinforcement, sociopaths are not always psychopaths which in turn are not always sociopaths - but an individual can be both. DUring the past two decades there has been a lot of upheaval in the world of sociological theory - especially the theory of the social construction of reality - which had forced the redefinition of sociopaths as destinctly separate from psychopaths (Dr. Wentworth of Clemson University wrote an excellent book on the subject of the Social Construction of Reality - the theory from which most other current social theory was extrapolated). The violent instantaneous reaction to negative reinforcement that is classically associated with psychopathy can of course also be present in sociopaths - but usually the sociopath will smile and take it intending to exact vengeance later in a manner that will not cause problems for himself (sociopaths tend to be self-serving individuals, and they are excellent at learning how to avoid the consequences of their actions). So the fellow that pissed off the sociopath will get geeked more than likely - but it'll happen much, much later. Short answer: Psychopath = Serial killer, the problem runner from the movie 'Heat,' Sociopath = Bond Villian who doesn't make the classic mistakes to further the plot |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Apr 4 2007, 06:14 PM
Post
#29
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
I've always been fond of the line (probably off a bit, from memory):
"A psychopath is someone who doesn't know the difference between right and wrong. I'm a sociopath, I know the difference, I just don't care." And a cookie for anyone who knows where the quote is from. |
|
|
|
|
Apr 4 2007, 06:20 PM
Post
#30
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
I feel like it's John Travolta saying that. Broken Arrow, or Face Off?
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 4 2007, 06:30 PM
Post
#31
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
nah - it was a made-for-TV movie based off a cancelled show that was supposed to tie up the loose ends of the show, but didn't...
It does sound like a 90s Travolta quote, though, doesn't it? |
|
|
|
|
Apr 4 2007, 06:37 PM
Post
#32
|
|
|
Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Serenity
[ Spoiler ]
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 4 2007, 06:39 PM
Post
#33
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 28-July 05 Member No.: 7,526 |
serenity wasn't made-for-tv though.
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 4 2007, 06:47 PM
Post
#34
|
|
|
Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
ah, good point
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 4 2007, 06:49 PM
Post
#35
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 34 Joined: 2-April 07 Member No.: 11,358 |
Doesn't that cover about half of all such movies? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Apr 4 2007, 07:04 PM
Post
#36
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
*snerk* yeah, probably - I finally remembered the name of the show, but the actor's name still escapes me. edit: and checking imdb gives part of the explanation: there were two more movies planned, and never filmed. Oh, and the full, correct quote is:
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
Apr 4 2007, 07:07 PM
Post
#37
|
|||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The actor's name is Peter Outerbridge. And having a decent Datasearch skill is awesome. -Frank |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Apr 4 2007, 07:08 PM
Post
#38
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
Your google-fu is strong, my friend.
:D |
|
|
|
|
Apr 4 2007, 07:12 PM
Post
#39
|
|||||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
Quit fooling around, Frank. You know you only have a Datasearch skill of 1. Rolling edge along with a high qual Browse program doesnt make you a cool hacker. :P |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Apr 4 2007, 07:12 PM
Post
#40
|
|||||||||
|
ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Ah, thanks. As usual, please caveat my posts with "I don't play SR4". The amnesty you mention doesn't exist / didn't happen in my game(s).
Yet he did. And it made for a great character, some great sessions, and an interesting story for me and the GM (the other characters in that game were of similar depth, and everyone generally enjoyed everyone else's stories as well). So again, I'd say that the fact that you say "that doesn't happen", almost as if it were a hard and fast rule, is limiting and game/fun-defeating.
Nope, I don't. But my doctor also doesn't work for a fictional medical company that has the equivalent of a medical SWAT unit, in a world where you can get your body replaced with metal and then get knocked out by a magical spell. He's also not likely to have his sister fall foul of a fictionalized, almost comic-book Japanese organized crime syndicate.
You're right, it is fiction. It's a role playing game. We're playing a game in which we can be things that don't exist in our world, doing things that don't happen in our lives. Apparently, what we will limit in our respective games based on how "real" it is or isn't is quite different. I wouldn't expect anything else. At any rate, you're arguing that "normal people don't become shadowrunners", but my point was "not all shadowrunners are cookie-cutter, amoral, boring stereotypes, and if the 'runners in your games are, you're missing out". We can debate either, but they're only somewhat related. |
||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||
|
Apr 4 2007, 07:22 PM
Post
#41
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
I think the one thing we are missing is the role of society...
Right now, we all seem to be judging runners on good and evil based on our current, 2007 societies...killing is bad, stealing is bad, etc. But, as far as I can tell, 2070 society is not the same as 2007 society:) Megacorps have control of their domains and anything they say, goes, plain and simple. They each get to define what murder, theft and whatever else they want, means. So, in a society where murder, theft, secrecy is the norm, then having a runner or team doing as "society" does, forces all of us to shift our perception of what right and wrong really is, IMO. A sociopath, has scope eloquently defined, is gauged off social norms...so in 2070, with those norms being so different from 2007, you'd have to believe that good and evil, what's right and what's wrong, are completely different in that sort of society. A runner that has no qualms of killing probably sees that sort of activity on a regular basis, as everyone else is doing it, and have been doing it for many decades, so there's a social shift in what's right and wrong. In a way, a runner not killing someone could be perceived as being wrong, to most of society... I like this discussion a lot. I just think that no one seems to be taking into account how all the social norms of 2070 are completely different, so we are taking the runners, placing them in our current norms and trying to judge them based on our own morals...and I don't think that is accurate. |
|
|
|
|
Apr 4 2007, 07:30 PM
Post
#42
|
|||||||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Quite possibly. Certainly my electronic warafre skill is meager enough that even minor password protection keeps me from wardriving. But I just had a thought: Quiz Shows in 2071. See, in 2071 the ability to answer questions off of Jeopardy isn't impressive - the majority of people watching on their home trids can actually answer those questions (or question those answers, but you know what I mean) reflexively with extremely easy datasearches out of their own datajacks. The appropriate responses would spring to mind before the buzzer finished making its noise. So instead the quiz shows people watch in 2071 are geared towards that reality. So here's the two most major formats:
-Frank |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Apr 4 2007, 07:38 PM
Post
#43
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
Very nice ideas there and I'm pretty sure they would be hilarious, probably even in 2007 considering what crap is on our TV's now. If you can, google up or search youtube for japanese quiz shows or variety shows, they do crazy shit like 'Cut Off!' already. :wobble:
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 4 2007, 07:50 PM
Post
#44
|
|||
|
Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
You're right, we're not really talking about the same thing. All I'm saying is, you're only a shadowrunner because you were forced into it, because you can't do anything else. I'm not saying all shadowrunners are amoral bastards. I'm saying given a choice, they wouldn't be shadowrunners. And I'm saying IN MY OPINION, a good background should cover why you were FORCED to shadowrun. So yeah, I don't really think were arguiing about anything. We're pretty much on the same page. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Apr 4 2007, 08:04 PM
Post
#45
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
Not all shadowrunners are FORCED into it... Example would be a rich punk who talks his buddies into having some quick fun by going on a run. They might get a huge wakeup call when the run turns sour quickly, but they CHOOSE to run.
Not every runner is a victim of society or cercumstance. Some do it because they like it or other reasons, but it needn't be because they were forced in some way. Hackers are matrix diving all the time - why not get paid for it? An ex-military guy might be able to get a good job with a corp, but sitting around and waiting just doesnt have that thrill of doing the assault on the facility. Just two examples of people who maked the decision to run without having something force them into it. |
|
|
|
|
Apr 4 2007, 08:39 PM
Post
#46
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: 21-December 06 Member No.: 10,416 |
I think it would all depend on the players. The groups I have played in have always tried to steer clear of unnecessary killing and cruelty, except when payback was in order. Sort of a walk softly but carry a big stick thing: we don't do these things because we don't have to to get a job done, but screw with us and all bets are off.
I agree with some of the other posters that real psychos wouldn't last too long. Sure they might get specialty jobs that involved a lot of killing and such, but that would bring a lot of heat down on them. Most people, meaning contacts, wouldn't like associating with such people either. They might out of fear, but there wouldn't be much loyalty. A team like that would really have to be careful. Say they killed a bunch of Lone Star grunts, the whole Corp would just love to get their hands on them. Don't expect a trial either, or even a log entry about them being taken into custody. |
|
|
|
|
Apr 4 2007, 09:29 PM
Post
#47
|
|||
|
ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Yup, pretty much. :cyber: |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Apr 4 2007, 09:37 PM
Post
#48
|
|||
|
Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
I totally agree that 2070 is very differant than today. But MURDER and theft will never be acceptable to society. Ever. All I think can be said is that in SR it's much, much easier to fall into "society's disgrace" and be forced to shadowrun. But no one is gonna tell you it's ok. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Apr 4 2007, 09:47 PM
Post
#49
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 34 Joined: 2-April 07 Member No.: 11,358 |
I have a little time, so I'll expand on what I said before.
The core idea of being a Shadowrunner is the fact that you're not owned by anyone. You do what you do because you decide to do it. Maybe you're doing it because you're not big on eating plain SoyRamen for the next month. Maybe you're doing it because you enjoy the rush. Maybe you just doing it because you want a pony. Shadowrunning is not something where you're going to be able to be nice all the time- you're breaking the law and generally speaking you're probably going to hurt someone in some way. You're going to have to shoot people, steal things, there's a decent chance you'll ruin careers and have at least one dead guy's blood on your hands. Especially if that guy happens to be an Ork, you've got a good chance of being responsible for killing some kid's daddy or mommy. At the same time, most people do what they do not just for independence, but because they don't want to be a corporate. They don't want to be a part of some soulless megacorp that's intent on crushing the little guy to make money. Shadowrunning's a way to stick it to the corps and have 'em pay for you to do it. For me, that means you draw a line. You state what you'll do and what you won't do. Keep your principles. If doing something you don't like is the line between eating soy and giving up your soul, that shouldn't be a hard choice to make. There's always runs that need to be made, the shadows aren't gonna dry up. Your contacts can't fix you with the right jobs, you get new contacts. Make sure you're good at what you will do, and there shouldn't be any problems. Sociopaths might have it easier, but for everyone else, you need to keep your own code. 'Ware isn't the only thing that can steal your soul. |
|
|
|
|
Apr 4 2007, 09:47 PM
Post
#50
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 28-July 05 Member No.: 7,526 |
I hate these players that think theyre in god mode, who see your npc's as bags of hit points and buttons to push for info. I mean, players are natively disassociated with the world their characters inhabit. You have to get them invested to make some of these people act like they have mores.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 13th August 2025 - 11:44 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.