 Skill Group Frustration |
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 Apr 6 2007, 03:15 PM
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#26
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168  |
1. Absolutely. This is a Role-Playing Game. That means that it's equal parts Role-Play and Game. I want a game that rewards me for understanding the rules. I wouldn't complain that the person who knows how build hotels in Monopoly isn't playing the game right. ;) And it creates interesting discussions and choices when you consider skill groups vs individual skills, and that makes the game better, imho. 2. Absolutely. Your Sammy is unlikely to buy Firearms 4. Because A. He doesn't really need to use all weapons, just the ones he has and B. He's going to want to be able to put a 5 or a 6, and a specialization in. However he might pick up stealth 2, or electronics 1 if he wants a little bit more flexibility. Skill groups are great for the 1-2 range, as a little bonus. |
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Apr 6 2007, 05:41 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
Lets look at buying skill groups from a PURE SHADOWRUNNER stand point. Rules for creating anyone other then a shadowrunners aren't relevant.
Cracking Group: Self explanatory. If your a hacker or technomancer its likely a good deal to buy this group as you'll need ALL of these skills Electronics Group: While a programer may not know how to build computer hardware, most engineers can at least put a computer together from the basic parts. Also a good choice for hackers. Influence Group Hmm Negotiation, Con, Etiquette and Leadership all in one neat little package. This is the Face group, If your building a Face, you likely need Con, Nego and Etiquette. One rank may be an exellent choice for almost anyone so you don't have to default on Negotiation, Con or Etiquette Firearms Group Now someone said the sammy only needs the skill in the gun he's going to use. But I don't think thats true, The sammy who's decent in all 3 skills has some better options available. He's not going to smuggle an assault rifle past a bouncer to follow his team mates into the club. So maybe he wants pistols. And maybe he wants to use a sniper rifle for a few wetwork jobs. Stealth Group Fairly straight forward, this was designed for Ninja archtype. Perfect for anyone who wants to avoid being seen. If you buy two skills in the same group its only another 2 BP per rank to get the skill group. Say you want Pistols 4, Automatics 6. You want pistols for your back up weapon thats a cost of 40 BP. For 48 BP you could buy Firearms of 4 and then break the group to raise automatics alone to 6. Min maxing is having an automatics of 6 but no skill in any other firearm. (yeah I'm guilty) |
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Apr 6 2007, 09:23 PM
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#28
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
1. It's still not clear that breaking a skill group during character creation is allowed. Many people (myself included) feel that's not how the rules are intended. 2. In theory, a sammy needs all the options. In practice, he needs nothing but automatics. Need to smuggle a gun in? Use a machine pistols. Need a sniper rifle? Why? The Alpha does nearly as well. Max range of 550. That's good enough for most everything. If you're in a position where you need a truly skilled sniper, you aren't going to have the sammy that's just okay with it doing it. If not, the alpha can work just fine. There may be a couple outside cases where you'd need a true skill in sniping. They are, I would argue, rare enough not to make it worth taking. It might sometimes be nice to be able to snipe from 1500, rather than 550, but "nice" and "spend 16 extra bp" aren't quite the same. ;) Besides, that's what skillwires are for. And how often, really, does your character find himself without his weapon of choice? The only time that happens consistently is when the GM is out to take away your stuff anyway. You may have one "you find yourself captured and tied up" adventure every blue moon. When you do, you're scavenging for weapons anyway. If the GM says "No, sorry, every guard only has a pistol" then 1. You're only facing pistols, so you're not that bad off, 2. You can default, and 3. Your GM is mad at you for not taking pistols, and is punishing you. If everyone you face is a pistol adept with super warhawks, just look at the GM and say "Look, Bob, are you mad that I only took Automatics?" If he says "Yes, I'm showing you why it's a problem" then you should make sure he's doing the same for the rest of the party in equal parts. "Well, the mage didn't take stealth, so be sure to put him in a position to need that, okay? And the physad has no negotiation, so make sure he's our point man next run." |
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Apr 6 2007, 09:27 PM
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#29
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
Just becuase it came up... |
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Apr 6 2007, 09:40 PM
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#30
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
In SR terms, I can envision it like gangers (and other inner city folks), there are situations where growing up they don't swim even though they are excellent athletic shape. This is due to not ever being in a pool before because of the rarity/lack of opportunity. |
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Apr 6 2007, 10:15 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 144 Joined: 30-April 03 Member No.: 4,529 |
Actually, my question was prompted by a desire to justify every particular skill and ability a character has, based upon their background. So sometimes, yes, it makes perfect sense that a well-trained athlete would simply add swimming to his trainging regime. Other times, however, it might make no sense. Or conversely, maybe the character has never trained on the climbing wall and should only have running, gymnastics, and swimming. There are plenty of times where skill groups are useful; I was just curious if anybody had attempted to make house rules to cover those instances where they penalize players for trying to make the skills fit their character, rather than making the character fit the skills. I've always looked at skill groups as skills that you couldn't really improve separately. Take firearms, for example. Firearms is a perfect example. It doesn't make sense to have a character with 4+ in automatics who has no more skill with a pistol or rifle than some schmuck off the street. This post has helped me refine a view to see cases where they are simply beneficial. Whereas before I focused on the fact that a software programmer might have no clue about hardware, now I can see the justification in the group, because a software programmer may very well be better if s/he also studies hardware and might have an easier time learning it. Maybe I'll just stick with the "naturally gifted" theory. Sure, the super athlete may not have swam before, but the first time he does, he's going to be really good. It isn't a perfect explanation, but it's probably as decent a solution as possible. |
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Apr 7 2007, 01:19 AM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 171 Joined: 5-February 05 Member No.: 7,053 |
In any RPG there are going to be boundary cases that are difficult to emulate because of the way the game abstracts things. In order to allow those boundary cases, you'd have to make the other 99% of the game more complicated.
It's not going to ruin your Lit major GPA if you can't work that swimming nonproficiency into the rich tapestry that is your backstory. It's hardly even going to show up all campaign. If one of these abstractions is actually causing a problem in your games, houserule around it for your purposes. If it's not, and you're just looking for places where there are cracks in the rules, find a new hobby. |
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Apr 7 2007, 10:31 PM
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#33
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
A per skill-rank BP discount presents certain issues. Either it changes the BP cost balance, it forces one to calculate fractional BP costs, or it forces one to keep tract of special conditional modifiers. At a -1BP per skill-rank for a 3 skill group one gets a total cost of 9BP per 3 skill-ranks instead of the 10BP per 3 skill-ranks of a three-skill skillgroup. This difference isn't much, but it adds up to a couple of extra contacts or some more resources or an extra spell or two, more if they use multiple groups this way. The big problem is the 4 skillers. A flat -1BP gives modifier of 12BP per 4skill-ranks, which makes the 4 and that extra 2 BP does add up to lost stat points and generally lower skills while a -2BP modifier produces an impressive 8BP per 4 skill-ranks and 6BP per 3 skill-ranks. |
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Apr 10 2007, 12:58 AM
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#34
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Yeah, but he's highly unlikely to buy them as a group. Since groups are capped at 4, it makes more sense to raise two of them to 5, or one to 6, since you'l be dependning on that skill so much more. If you're a decker or otaku, you're *less* likely to buy the group, not more. That's one of the problems I have with skill groups: they build really nice generalists, but suck for specialists. At any event, to answer the OP's question, I suggest that the characters in question buy an Incompetence in the particular skill. Yes, technically you'll have bought the skill; but the Incompetence will keep you from using it, and give you BP's to boot. If the character later wants to use the skill, he can buy off the flaw at the normal cost. |
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Apr 10 2007, 08:39 AM
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#35
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
You still can remove the caps with a houserule. |
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Apr 10 2007, 11:15 AM
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#36
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,251 Joined: 11-September 04 From: GA Member No.: 6,651 |
If playing a very long term game groups allow more growth into a character. While a hacking-6 char could get to hacking-9 for [(7+8+9)*2=]48 Karma the cracking group to 6 would cost [25+30=] 55 Karma giving the cracking group character a slightly more expensive 6/6/6 build while the specialist had a 4/4/9 build.
I suppose the usefulness of this would depend on how much EW and Cybercombat the runners' situations require. All in all I'd take the specialist as well I suppose with high Edge and both the Home Ground and Codeslinger qualities specified for that they were WEAKEST in. [Something EW related for a hacker, Something Hacking related for a smuggler/drone rigger.] |
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