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 Apr 9 2007, 09:00 AM
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#26
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Shadow Cartographer  Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636  |
I do the GM shudder, now. |
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Apr 9 2007, 12:35 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
They've got antibiotics for the GM shudder now, you know.
I've given up on the shudder now, personally. I figure, players like to have characters who are the best at something. My group has a rigger who is a driver savant who is also damn near impossible to hit in combat, because she's so quick. We've got the invincible troll. He doesn't have 27 dice to resist damage yet, but we're getting there. (The full body armor went a long way.) Solution? Come at them a different way. Invincible troll in scary body armor? I'm not going to stand behind a bench plugging away ineffectually at him while he marches at me, blowing away my buddies. I'm going to keep my head down and yell to the mage, "Geek the troll!" I've noticed that our inner munchkins come out when we play Shadowrun, even for the "serious roleplayers". So I embrace it. Within reason. (Everyone's got limits.) |
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Apr 9 2007, 12:42 PM
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#28
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Target Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: 19-April 05 From: Amsterdam, UNL Member No.: 7,347 |
Seeing that the average height of a troll (based IMO on the average body & strength) is 2.5 meters this one, with body 9 and probably considerable strength too will most likely end up being a lot bigger. I'm just wondering... Where in the world will this bulging troll find enough room to do his, bullet dodging back flips? |
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Apr 9 2007, 01:58 PM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
Oh that score a DM points saying Trolls are to big and talll to make dodge rolls. Thats WORSE then any cheep munchkin build a PC can come up with. Try something simpler. Like Synthacardium adds its bonnus to all athletics tests NOT all athletics skills so it doesn't apply to dodging. Or perhaps the modified skill rating can't exceed the base skill rating x1.5. Thus you with a gymnastics of 1 you can't benefit from Synthacardium rating 3. |
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Apr 9 2007, 02:41 PM
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#30
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
I personally wouldn't allow dodging as a specialisation of gymnastics. It's not in the list in the book, and it seems very munchkiny to me. But then some of the specialisations listed are bloody silly (semi automatics for the pistols skill, when there are only two or three handguns in the book that aren't semi autos. Rather too broad IMO. I'm inclined to restrict it to a make of gun).
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Apr 9 2007, 03:16 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 205 Joined: 7-January 07 From: Sydney, Australia Member No.: 10,558 |
ornot: In terms of gymnastic specialisations I could've just made it any other kind of gymnastics (ie tumbles) and said his gymnastic dodge takes the form of tumbling. I just figured the times Im going to be using his gymnastics is when I need to dodge so why not be honest about it.
Jack Kain: With your first point I can see what you're saying legalistically speaking, but that's not how I'd rule it. The second point I didn't know about, but I'd still be getting plus 2 (1.5 rounded up) and I'd get another point of gymnastics when I could and then it wouldn't be an issue. At the end of the day it was just an exercise in min/max though. I probably won't ever get a chance to use him as I don't know anyone that plays and if I did I'd play a mage instead. :P |
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Apr 10 2007, 01:18 AM
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#32
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,290 Joined: 23-January 07 From: Seattle, USA Member No.: 10,749 |
As a GM I wouldn't allow you to reduce the effective magic for your adept or magician abilities below 1 unless both are allready at one.
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Apr 10 2007, 02:17 AM
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#33
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
I would do the same, as well as ruling that you need a Magic rating (dedicated to the mage side) of at least 1 to use counterspelling.
But on the flip side, I disagree with both of the proposed gimps of synthcardium. First of all, gymnastics dodge IS an athletics test. Second of all, synthcardium gives a dice pool bonus, instead of modifying the skill, so it is not limited to skill x 1.5. House rule either way if you feel you must, but I hope you let the players know beforehand, so they can adjust their characters before the campaign begins. But that will hurt the sammies more than it will hurt the adepts, who will still have the far more advantageous Combat Sense power. |
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Apr 10 2007, 08:26 AM
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#34
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Target Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: 19-April 05 From: Amsterdam, UNL Member No.: 7,347 |
I didn't say there were too big and tall to make dodge rolls. I said I'd like to see them try bullet dodging back flips in close quarters. Of course they still can use the skill but I will give modifiers when I feel like there is little space to dodge. And I'm not racist, I'll do the same thing for the rest of meta-humanity, its just that dwarves are so much less likely to find themselves in places were they have difficulty dodging. And it isn't WORSE, its more realistic. Plus trolls have enough Body to more compensate for being the ones that dodge with a negative DP modifier when they get trapped.
So the Synthacardium doesn't help dodging. I'm not sure about the implications of "add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool" but back on topic... If you feel Dermal Plating is too weak you might reuse a spin-off of the SR3 layering armor rule. Multiply the Dermal Plating Ballistic and Impact Armor Rating by 2. Then apply the layering armor rule when ever the character uses additional armor. Rating 3 Dermal would get a character 6/6 while the same character wearing a Armor Jacket (8/6) would get the regular 11/9 armor ratings. It takes away some realism and might make Dermal Plating too powerful, though... |
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Apr 10 2007, 10:42 AM
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#35
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
In SR3, Dermal Plating didn't give Ballistic and Impact armor, it just added dice to your body, and Orthoskin gave lower bonuses IIRC.
Dermal Sheathing, however, added both to Body and a little Armor Ratings. If anything, the bonus to armor in SR4 is better than in SR3. |
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Apr 10 2007, 03:21 PM
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#36
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Trolls pay extra for that extra body, in terms of metatype points, and suffer some serious drawbacks already. Besides, as soon as you tell me that you're going to give penalties for size for that, I explain that my troll works with martial artists. When bullets begin flying, he drops flat to the ground quickly, and then springs back up. If people fire at him on the ground, he jumps and twists. He doesn't take up any more space than he normally does. Alternatively, the magic in his system has made him just flat out denser, and his muscles are extremely ropy and wiry and toned, not big. His high body represents a tremendously healthy lifestyle. There are no size mods in SR. Because otherwise, people take a penalty to shoot dwarves (they're smaller - harder to hit, right?), get big bonuses to shoot trolls (bigger target!), trolls get a bonus to smash doors above their strength (they're big, right?), etc. The fact that trolls have problems dodging in small spaces is represented by the fact that they have a lower max Agi cap. That's all it needs to be represented by, or you get in to far far too many issues. |
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Apr 10 2007, 03:39 PM
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#37
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
If you're using Gymnastics dodge, no matter who you are you need space, and a troll needs more.
Dodge skill I interpret like you say, turning sideways, small moves, minor anticipations, etc. But I'm of the opinion that Gymnastics dodge should be flashy and require space, for anyone, and as a result more for trolls... |
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Apr 10 2007, 05:13 PM
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#38
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Do you get bonuses to gymnastics if you play a short, slender character? I'd be willing to take the neg. quals Anorexia and Bulemia if it meant I got a +2 to dodge....
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Apr 10 2007, 05:38 PM
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#39
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
Sure, but Anorexia and Bulemia restrict your Body and Strength, and you suffer fatigue penalties after fasting or purging, and low self esteem penalties after binging.
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Apr 10 2007, 05:42 PM
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#40
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
No, you don't get a bonus, but you require less space to use Gymnastics. I'm not saying to give less dice to them because they are a troll, I'm saying that they can only Gymnastics dodge if they have the space, and a Troll requires more than a Human requires more than a Dwarf.
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Apr 10 2007, 09:41 PM
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#41
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Target Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: 19-April 05 From: Amsterdam, UNL Member No.: 7,347 |
I'm talking, as Demerzel points out quite nicely about situational modifiers. I would also give a troll a harder time getting into a ventilation system. Are you going to give me a hard time about that too?
I haven't spoken about bonuses but since we're on the subject... yes, I give bonuses for size too. It's, for instance much easier to reach a 3 meter ledge for a troll than it is for any other meta-type and intimidation is a lot easier when you're big and strong (yes the last one is mentioned in the book) But if I were to follow the book you wouldn't like to play a troll because they are relatively the weakest meta-type. According to the Lifting and Carrying rules mentioned on page 130 they can't even lift themselves unless they have a very strong Body and Strength (say both 10) and get a lucky throw (say 10+ hits) and the hulking giant weighs only 300kg, which is only the average weight. |
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Apr 10 2007, 09:52 PM
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#42
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737 |
Don't forget that that's carrying additional weight, not their own body weight, and that there's some logic in there--i.e. the whole body weight/limb size ratio or, more famously "Why a giant ant/beetle/spider/etc would simply collapse and snap their limbs off because of their own weight." but your point on trolls being the "weakest" metatype has a point from a certain POV--in terms of a body mass/lifting capacity ratio, they certainly have the lowest, while dwarfs would have the highest. However, that being said, the argument is rather pointless, because the differences in the ratios, while there, are quite pointless in normal usage, because the troll is *so* much larger than a dwarf that the effect gets swallowed by the comparative differences in their body weight. Or, to put that last bit simply, yes, pound for pound, a dwarf can lift and carry more than a troll. But your average troll could pick up and carry that dwarf *and* his full payload without a problem. |
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Apr 10 2007, 10:12 PM
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#43
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Target Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: 19-April 05 From: Amsterdam, UNL Member No.: 7,347 |
That's also because of their exoskeleton which doesn't scale well. By lifting I mean Pull-ups. And I think its weird to assume everyone can do those... And even so, I think its totally weird that one troll couldn't lift another. Anyway, my point was that some rules that are in the book should be changed while others that are not in the book should be added to make for a more realistic system without complicating it much. There are rules for driving in enclosed space but there should also be for gymnastic dodging and trolls should be able to lift way more that they do now. |
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Apr 11 2007, 01:42 AM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 205 Joined: 7-January 07 From: Sydney, Australia Member No.: 10,558 |
Have you watched any martial arts movies with people dodging acrobatically in close quarters? Rolling? Wall-jumping? Granted it would be a little odd to see a Troll doing this but that's why he has the skill. If he was in a tiny room that he pretty much filled then I guess it would be harder (just as it would be hard for anyone to do a backflip in a box), but unless you're fighting in a vent or a dwarf warren I think it's getting a little pedantic.
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Apr 11 2007, 03:43 AM
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#45
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
Well, clearly you don't understand the meaning of the word pedantic.
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Apr 11 2007, 03:49 AM
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#46
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737 |
No no no no... you said it wrong. "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." :grinbig: |
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Apr 11 2007, 03:51 AM
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#47
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Hot Hazing Target Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 8-April 07 From: Regina, Canada and Montreal, Canada. Member No.: 11,410 |
INCONCEIVABLE! I wonder if he is using the same wind we are using. As for dermal armour, I always saw it as a thickened skin. It was never a really uber-durable armour in my eyes. It was more like a toughening, rather than a real honest-to-god armour system. |
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Apr 11 2007, 07:33 AM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 205 Joined: 7-January 07 From: Sydney, Australia Member No.: 10,558 |
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Apr 11 2007, 08:12 AM
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#49
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Target Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: 19-April 05 From: Amsterdam, UNL Member No.: 7,347 |
I agree to disagree. If a troll was fighting in a vent I'd ask how the hell he got there in the first place and would give a hefty DP mod on dodge. If on the other hand he was fighting in small (human) sized room I'd probably give him -2 DP mod. @Denicalis: It says Dermal Plating, that at least sounds more rigid than the rating it gives. With the rules I posted earlier in this thread you could make it more useful when weaker types of armor are worn while keeping it the same for stronger armor. Although it is extra rules again... |
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Apr 11 2007, 08:22 AM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 205 Joined: 7-January 07 From: Sydney, Australia Member No.: 10,558 |
And yet this sounds similar to Orthoskin which has the same effect for less essence... |
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