Projecting Mage Death vs. Instant Return to Body, or "Egg-timer vs. Disruption" Options

[eidolon]

This came up over here, and since this isn't v4 specific (and maybe not even related), and not terribly related to the question at hand, I didn't want to gum up that thread.

[Kagetenshi]

I haven't made any modifications, but I do believe that to be a hole in the rules. My preferred solution is to eliminate disruption and have mages who take D out on the astral die if they don't recover and return to their bodies. The whole "instant escape via self-damage" thing really annoys me.

~J

[eidolon]

[Kagetenshi]

They're pretty bad players if they aren't using something that is a clear logical consequence of the rules. I mean, it's not like this is some strange corner case here. It's something so out-in-the-open that deliberately not fixing it is sufficient justification to consider it an intended effect of the system.

~J

[eidolon]

Potato.

[Demerzel]

If I were to modify the Egg-Timer-o-Death™ rule I would want a new rule that is very strict. I would say if you hit your time cap you get full damage tracks, both of ‘em, but are stable. Then apply that to disruption as well, so even if you are disrupted by a full stun track.

It should be traumatic to be forced rapidly back to your shell. More importantly, you should have to be a maniac to let yourself get close to Egg-Timer-o-Death™. Possibly, even go to the point of assigning gaesa.

[eidolon]

Ah, I left that out. :oops: Yes, if they are disrupted, they have (a) full damage track(s). It's definitely not a get out of jail free card. TBH though, I can't remember right now whether I used to apply it to both or just one. The game I just started up hasn't had any mojo yet, but will starting tomorrow night. I want to say I slapped them full on both, but I'd have to look back through my notes to be sure.

[Demerzel]

Only if you're playing SR3-
:smokin:

[eidolon]

So what your saying is...

I'm 100% correct!

;)

[Kagetenshi]

Didn't SR2 also have that rule? I've forgotten.

~J

[Demerzel]

The geasa/magic loss for a D wound? If that's what you mean, I think so.

Now that I'm dredging up old versions from my memory, was there a mechanic where your Magic Rating faded at a rate of 1 per hour while projecting, and that's where the Egg-Timer-o-Death™ came from?

[Kagetenshi]

Essence, actually, but yeah, that's when your Mage becomes hard boiled.

~J

[eidolon]

Was the mechanic the same through first, second, and third? As much intention as I have to eventually read the previous rules editions thoroughly enough to answer this myself, I just haven't gotten around to it.

Does it exist in 4th? And if not, what's the deal there re: out too long?

[Demerzel]

So far as I know it's just the timer in SR4. There's no weakening. As a result you're way more likely to stay out of your bod for a long time in 4ed than you are in eairler because there's not loss of power... In previous editions you're taking a big risk being out and about for long periods of time because of the weakening....

[Garrowolf]

Okay so what is the point of the rule in the first place. I mean why is it necessary for mages to die if they spend a certain amount of time in astral? Where did the idea of this come from in the first place?

[Kagetenshi]

The point of the rule is to limit astral projection and give it some tiny semblance of actual risk.

~J

[Garrowolf]

But why? Why is it necessary? I mean that there is already risk in that you can take damage. You could encounter a nasty spirit. You could be attacked by another mage. It's not safe in the first place.

Limiting it would work as instant return.

It doesn't seem to solve any game balance problems that I can see. It doesn't represent stories about Astral Projection that I've read.

What is the point?

It strikes me as something that they just put in there for no reason.

[Ravor]

Well I think the reason they put the rule in is to simply limit Astral Scouting to prevent Astral Stakeouts with very little risk to the Mage, well plus without it boring through Mother Gia's Astral Form in order to get to an underground target without worrying about the Astral Security becomes a much better option.

[Garrowolf]

okay you've explained why they would limit it. Not why they feel the need to have the death to the traveler thing.

I agree with limiting it. I think that it should actually be more dangerous in general by having various random and sometimes mean spirits. I can see a limit based on your magic rating or something. After that you pop back to your body and maybe take stun if you have been out too long.

But why death?

[Ravor]

Well if I remember correctly, the Astral Plane used to be more dangerous by it's very nature to the Mages that traversed it, all Drain was Physical, ect, so if I had to guess they figured that dying from being out too long was the logical thing to do. Something about the Mage's magical power being the only thing holding his Astral Form together if I remember correctly.

Plus if you just popped back into your body after being out too long, the threat of someone coming along and stealing your body to force you to do 'X' while in the Astral wasn't quite as threatening if you didn't have the ticking bomb to worry about.

[Demerzel]

The metaphysics has it thus:

If memory serves your Magic or essence reduced every hour out there and at the ringing of the Egg-Timer-o-Death™ your astral form winked out of existance. It just got too weak. Then you had a body without a soul that could continue indefinately on life support.

The time limit carried over to SR4, but not the weakening... That's from memory, but I'll look into it.

[ElFenrir]

Well, the ol Egg Timer, when i think about it, isn't so terrible. Yeah, Astral Space is dangerous as it is(spirits, other mages, spells being Physical drain, and lets not forget the damage a mage takes if there is a mana warp, rare as they are), the 1 hour per point of Essence rule is actually pretty lean as it is.

5-6 hours(typical mage essence, a few go lower but ive found it uncommon) is a long time. You can accomplish alot in 5-6 hours. Hell, runs themselves, if they are well planned,can run shorter than 5-6 hours.

The hardest part of this rule is the whole getting your body moved and having to find it. Which typically isnt a problem if you have someone guarding your body. IMO, if you go astral without a guard of sorts, you're asking for it. Would you go to a random sidewalk in a major city and go to sleep alone? Probably not.

Proper precautions can leave a mage's body safe, be it physical guards, if the body is well locked in at home(preferably with a physical guard), among other things.

Of course, there might be those times where a mage has to drop to Astral sort of fast(ive had to do it before), with little protection, but those times are typically few and far between.(ive done it once.)

And GM that repeatedly steals a mage's body just to try to 'kill' him every time should get the BBB upside the head.

I CAN see what some people are talking about, though, about giving mages yet another thing to worry about. However, as said, IMO its some of the least of their astral worries.

My 3e rules knowledge is a BIT rusty atm...i can't remember if initiation could increase the time in any way. If not, that might be a worthy house rule...each point of Initation increases the time by 1 hour. Makes sense to me.

[eidolon]

AFAIK, there's no way to increase the time limit, since it's not dependent on Magic rating but Essence.

At any rate, I hadn't really ever thought much about whether egg-timer or disruption were bad in and of themselves, only that they were contradictory. The contradiction was what I felt needed to be addressed, never the innate existence of one or the other.

Now I'm wondering if I shouldn't change disruption instead. In actuality, neither situation comes up in my games very often (astral combat seems rare in my games, probably just because I've been too lazy to make it a bigger part).

[KarmaInferno]

Am I the only one who likes to flip over the projecting mage's body, or move it a foot or so? Just so the mage has that brief disjointed moment of disorientation and panic as body parts are not where they were expected to be.

:D


-karma

[Garrowolf]

Here's a weird question: What would happen if you put trodes on a mage that was projecting and turned it on? His brain would be getting input but his consciousness isn't there at that moment, would he feel it? Would he freak out when he came back? Could you make him think that he was still projecting?

I guess that is several questions.