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> Matrix involvement in your sessions: for dummies.
Captain K
post Apr 9 2007, 08:37 PM
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Sorry if this topic's been covered, but I didn't see anything similar in the thread index when I scanned through. Lock if necessary.


Our group's gotten back together after many years away from the game, and we upgraded to 4th edition along with the game. We're just all pretty confused about the 2070 Matrix--implementing the rules, and implementing the omnipresence of AR.


So maybe you folks can help? Here's the two main concerns we have:

1) Where's the limit, as far as using the Matrix/AR? How much can you really do? Anything you can think of? Can every mechanical device with a wireless connection to the Matrix be hacked? Every person's commlink, every place of business's Matrix node? Every vehicle and wirelessly accessible kitchen appliance? Where do you draw the line in your sessions, or do you?

On the same note, how much Matrix interconnectivity do you allow your players to have, in the heat of a run? The 4th ed. sourcebook makes it seem like everyone with even a simple commlink and some AR glasses can have live textual communication, live-updated tacmaps, and the kitchen sink. Where you draw the line here, if at all?


2) As far as implementing the rules for hacking, how many dice rolls should it take for your hacker character to accomplish something meaningful? One dice roll to access a desired node, and one to search for juicy data, and that's it? I'm sure our group is missing some important steps, but we've been away from the game for a long time, the Matrix is totally different in fourth edition, and we were never incredibly familiar with the Matrix in 2nd or 3rd ed. either.

In your sessions, how do you resolve a typical hacking excursion? For example, if the hacker character is armed with a license plate number, how difficult do you make it for him to find out who owns the vehicle, and from that, everything interesting about that person?


My group is anxious to get comfortable with the 4th ed. Matrix, because it's just cool, but we don't feel like we really have a grasp on how to incorporate it into our sessions. Hopefully you guys can share your experiences.
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Thanee
post Apr 9 2007, 08:52 PM
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As for what can be hacked... every item, that is accessing the Matrix can be hacked.

That means most commlinks (you can set them to not hook up with the Matrix, but then you can't use them to call someone, obviously).

One *very important* thing to keep in mind, though, not everything that can be hacked gets hacked (all the time), just because it can. ;)



How hacking works...

First you need a way in. There are two option: Hacking on the Fly and Probing the Target. Hacking on the Fly only really works against weak systems, normally you need to take your time (several hours) to find a weak point to exploit. You will find those chapters in the matrix section of the rulebook on page 221. You have to choose a level of access rights (personal, security, admin) with increasing difficulty for the hacking test.

Once inside without sounding an alarm, you can usually go about your business with the access rights you got (there's the Once Inside chapter in the book, which covers some additional things you need to look out for and which might still detect you as an intruder). Some things require higher rights, so you better know what you want beforehand.

For example, you want to download the video from a security camera. To access the camera memory you will probably need security access. So you hack into the system (let's say it works out successfully) and then you need to locate the camera (using Data Search or Analyze probably). Once you got it, you have to edit it to download the data you want (Computer + Edit) and then you surely want to remove your own traces from the system, which requires a Data Search + Browse test to locate the security logs and a Hacking + Edit test to remove the entry with your user id from them. Then you can log out.

Bye
Thanee
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Wasabi
post Apr 9 2007, 09:24 PM
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One really big concept in SR4 hacking is that you hack a commlink to access the stuff it controls. A parallel, imperfect but similar, would be hacking a DSL router to see what was connected and mess with it.

To make this harder most folks have their wireless set to 'Hidden' mode which is tough to detect ina crowded room if you arent hopping-good at it. [Electronics Warfare to find it]

Once you find it you either use a legit logon to access it with the access restrictions of that login or you hack into it to do things normally restricted. This means a hacker with high Data Search skill could quickly access the remains of the Library of Congress to find a historical record but not quickly find out who was currently standing in a casino's money-counting room.

Its QUITE a flexible world out there and TM's make a mincemeat of it when played properly. Hackers are more flexible but if a TM focuses on drones and sprites they are darned effective.
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Wasabi
post Apr 9 2007, 09:36 PM
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QUOTE (Captain K @ Apr 9 2007, 03:37 PM)
[I]f the hacker character is armed with a license plate number, how difficult do you make it for him to find out who owns the vehicle, and from that, everything interesting about that person?

First off the Hacker/TM has to figure out a way to access the data. One good way is for the Hacker/TM to tell the group he needs to break into an insurance company and run the plate. With a bit of hacking the Hacker/TM can pull up a customer and start the paperwork for a collision and use that to find out the name and registered address of the other driver. Scary but true.

Another way is to break into a police node and run a search. Risky, though. Better off paying a visit to a cop who is a contact and asking for a hand.

How hard? A munchkin TM can do it in about 5 dice rolls. They thread their Exploit, Stealth, and Analyze up to 6 [if not 6 already] then use a rating 6 registered sprite to bring it to 12. They then exploit in as an administrator [+6 to threshold], create a legit account for later, wipe off their resonance signature from the exploiting and edit [erasure], and logout. then 1 sec later they login using the legit administrator login, data search for the stuff they want unmolestable by anyone except another threaded, assisted TM.

Usually after walking a GM through that a few times they will either:

1. Trip you up with honeypots, bouncer nodes, and other tricky matrix things [which is great fun] or
2. Take a majority of commlinks offline such as Fixers that dont want to get hacked, or
3. Use a profuse amount of antiwireless paint so remote hacking is nigh impossible, or
4. Say that moderately difficult things just take X amount of time and that you succeed.

Especially if the Hacker/TM has high edge their 1 or 2 big all-or-nothing hacking attempts per run can produce some silly high numbers that only an equally silly cybercombat can balance.

My 2 nuyen... ymmv...
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Nim
post Apr 9 2007, 09:40 PM
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QUOTE (Wasabi)
One really big concept in SR4 hacking is that you hack a commlink to access the stuff it controls. A parallel, imperfect but similar, would be hacking a DSL router to see what was connected and mess with it.

One of the differences (and it's one that makes hacking the commlink actually make more sense) is that getting access to a DSL router would let you REACH the nodes behind it, but not actually give you any particular control over them. Most of a 2070 person's personal electronics, though, are /designed/ to be controlled via commlink. It's the universal remote for all the stuff you're carrying. So it makes sense that hacking it would let you mess with everything else.
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Aaron
post Apr 9 2007, 10:48 PM
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We're playing tomorrow. Would it be helpful to record a hacking session, just so folks can see how we do it?
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dionysus
post Apr 9 2007, 11:05 PM
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QUOTE (Aaron)
We're playing tomorrow. Would it be helpful to record a hacking session, just so folks can see how we do it?

I'd be very interested.
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Captain K
post Apr 9 2007, 11:38 PM
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QUOTE (dionysus)
QUOTE (Aaron @ Apr 9 2007, 05:48 PM)
We're playing tomorrow. Would it be helpful to record a hacking session, just so folks can see how we do it?

I'd be very interested.

Count me as interested, too.
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Aaron
post Apr 10 2007, 12:28 AM
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If it's cool with my group, I'll record a hacking session and post it.
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FriendoftheDork
post Apr 10 2007, 01:07 AM
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I just wanna chime in, even though I think I understand the system and the rolls involved, I haven't playtested it yet. In my game the hacker hasn't got hacking program yet (and when he will they will be rating 1 or 2 at best because of money shortage).

But I still feel that when hacking I will forget a few crucial rolls, or forgot about what to do.

Example: Often recently the hacker has asked for wireless devices nearby (comlink), and I have made him make elec. warfare+scan checks in order to find them. I don't really know what the threshold would be to find a metalink with crappy OS though, 1?
And what if they are in passive mode? Or even hidden?

Secondly, how hard is it to take someone's comlink and access it? Would you still need to hack it in order to log on and check it out? So far that's what I've used.
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Wasabi
post Apr 10 2007, 02:14 AM
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QUOTE (Aaron)
We're playing tomorrow. Would it be helpful to record a hacking session, just so folks can see how we do it?

I'm interested.
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Wasabi
post Apr 10 2007, 02:15 AM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Apr 9 2007, 08:07 PM)
how hard is it to take someone's comlink and access it? Would you still need to hack it in order to log on and check it out? So far that's what I've used.

Correct. Its a mystery until the firewall is hacked.

The usual sequence is:
Scan for node
Hack node
Enter node
Observe in Detail (matrix perception, to check for an alert and for any agents/spiders)
Data Search (for paydata) or Edit (camera feeds)
Edit logs to erase signs of passage
Logout

The system is constantly doing Analyze operations if its well designed and if an intruder is spotted the node sets off an alarm which gives it a bonus to whoop the intruders patooty. This only works if they dont log in as an Administrator to later hack in with a permitted account.

Another good step to add in there few use is "List Subscribed Devices". Its handy and easy to get a list of what the firewall doesnt want you to monkey with...

Lastly, check out Pavao's site for hacker cards. you stick em in a baseball card sleeve with a playing card behind them and you have a quick reference for your hacking stuff as well as a way to track what programs a hacker has active:

http://www.pavao.org/shadowrun/index.html
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cetiah
post Apr 10 2007, 05:15 AM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
Example: Often recently the hacker has asked for wireless devices nearby (comlink), and I have made him make elec. warfare+scan checks in order to find them. I don't really know what the threshold would be to find a metalink with crappy OS though, 1?
And what if they are in passive mode? Or even hidden?

Secondly, how hard is it to take someone's comlink and access it? Would you still need to hack it in order to log on and check it out? So far that's what I've used.


First, during a game, I believe it's better to just assume that a skilled hacker could find the node he was looking for rather than look up a threshold I don't have on hand at the moment. The real fun is once he's in the node anyway.

Second, I would say they need a username and password at least. That usually requires a hack. If you can get access to someone's comlink, you can probably get access to the person, though, so I'd say a little bit of tortue and an intimidate test should get the person to access it for you.


In all seriousness, though, a stolen comlink still needs to be hacked. The hacker can probably bypass the electronic warfare test to find the node if he's holding it in his hand and can just apply a direct cable, IR port, or some similiarly more direct means. Besides, that close to his PAN, it should be one of the strongest unknown wireless signals detected.
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Wasabi
post Apr 10 2007, 11:06 AM
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QUOTE (cetiah)
First, during a game, I believe it's better to just assume that a skilled hacker could find the node he was looking for rather than look up a threshold I don't have on hand at the moment. The real fun is once he's in the node anyway.

Thresholds like Scan+EW arent resisted so the only point of the threshold is to determine how long it takes. I 100% agree that this should be relegated to "after 20 or so seconds you find..." and then drive on with the Story. :-)
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The Jopp
post Apr 10 2007, 11:27 AM
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One thing that i made great use of in my first run with my hacker was wireless interception.

The best way to find out who/when/what a person does with the commlink is to find the signal (wheter or not they are connected to the matrix, just be in range) and tap into the signal.

From there I picked up the commcode to a few of the targets contacts and continued to wiretap them as well and having an agent record everything and send me a message as soon as they contacted a commlinks commcode.

We avoided most of the actual runs stupid plots (why break in when you can listen in) and avoided several time consuming tasks.
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FriendoftheDork
post Apr 10 2007, 02:06 PM
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Thanks for answers, but I still wonder if you can just use scan+electronic warfare to find hidden PANS easily.

Oh and BTW, in my game I have allowed people without the relevant program to take computer tests... for example if someone wants to search the matrix, but couldn't afford a browse program, he still can use the programs automatically built into the OS (think Internet Explorer). Of course, lacking good programs you have to default to the skill only (thus Data Search-1 or Computer -1).

Since hacking programs is not common in ordinary OSs, you'll actually need to buy one first in order to attempt to hack.
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Wasabi
post Apr 10 2007, 11:18 PM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
Thanks for answers, but I still wonder if you can just use scan+electronic warfare to find hidden PANS easily.

With EW4 and Scan6 you throw 10 dice to find a hidden pan. Thats 3.333 hits on average so 5 passes to exceed the threshold of 15. In full VR you'd add two more dice so it would only take 4 passes. Thats a few seconds of real time.

Whats more time consuming than finding hidden pans is finding the RIGHT hidden pans. If in AR you might wanna be overlooking the crowd or if in a meeting room reduce signal to only encompass the room to rule out signals farther away. Barring a good position yourself use drones to triangulate camera feeds with the position of the signals you find.

The short answer is yes, its easy. Its unresisted. thats why most GM's just say it takes a few seconds or maybe a minute and boom, you're looking at a node asking to be hacked. :-)
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Aaron
post Apr 11 2007, 03:53 AM
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Well, our hacker didn't need to hack into a node this session, so we faked it and made one up at the end, and recorded it. You can find it here.

The audio has been edited, mostly to remove instances of "um" and "you know" and giant gaps, so if we sound professional it's because of that. Also, I wasn't picky about my cuts, so if we sound like Ask a Ninja, that's why.
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Captain K
post Apr 11 2007, 07:13 AM
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Just finished listening. This is extremely useful stuff, thanks so much for making the recording. This answers at least 90% of my questions about how to incorporate hacking into your game session.

One of the few things I'm still not sure about: The "I got three hits, so I get to ask three questions" thing--is that from the sourcebook for Matrix perception, or is that just how your handles Matrix perception tests? Or... all perception tests?
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FriendoftheDork
post Apr 11 2007, 08:22 AM
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QUOTE (Wasabi)
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Apr 10 2007, 09:06 AM)
Thanks for answers, but I still wonder if you can just use scan+electronic warfare to find hidden PANS easily.

With EW4 and Scan6 you throw 10 dice to find a hidden pan. Thats 3.333 hits on average so 5 passes to exceed the threshold of 15. In full VR you'd add two more dice so it would only take 4 passes. Thats a few seconds of real time.

Whats more time consuming than finding hidden pans is finding the RIGHT hidden pans. If in AR you might wanna be overlooking the crowd or if in a meeting room reduce signal to only encompass the room to rule out signals farther away. Barring a good position yourself use drones to triangulate camera feeds with the position of the signals you find.

The short answer is yes, its easy. Its unresisted. thats why most GM's just say it takes a few seconds or maybe a minute and boom, you're looking at a node asking to be hacked. :-)

Alright, I think I got it. The hacker in my group only has 3 dice atm though, so he's likely to glitch (cant afford program).
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Wasabi
post Apr 11 2007, 10:07 AM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Apr 11 2007, 03:22 AM)
Alright, I think I got it. The hacker in my group only has 3 dice atm though, so he's likely to glitch (cant afford program).

Edge.... when you ab-so-lutely have to hack every node in the room... accept noooo substitutes. :-)
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FriendoftheDork
post Apr 11 2007, 10:09 AM
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QUOTE (Wasabi)
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Apr 11 2007, 03:22 AM)
Alright, I think I got it. The hacker in my group only has 3 dice atm though, so he's likely to glitch (cant afford program).

Edge.... when you ab-so-lutely have to hack every node in the room... accept noooo substitutes. :-)

Yeah he has edge 6 (those damned overpowered humans ;) )

Since he's in a static (-2) area, he'll need to use edge just to find a single one... at least until he can afford a REAL Scan programme.
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Aaron
post Apr 11 2007, 11:45 AM
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QUOTE (Captain K)
One of the few things I'm still not sure about: The "I got three hits, so I get to ask three questions" thing--is that from the sourcebook for Matrix perception, or is that just how your handles Matrix perception tests? Or... all perception tests?

Just Matrix perception tests, per p. 217 in your hymnal.

Incidentally, I should also mention that I'll switch back and forth a lot if there are other players present, and not just standing by making snarky comments. All those times where I'm saying "while you're doing that I should mention ..." is when I usually cut to somebody who isn't in cyberspace and give them a bit of time (I cut a lot of hit-counting time in the audio; we're not dice-counting savants).
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Serbitar
post Apr 11 2007, 12:25 PM
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Check SGM v0.9 for a BBB compatible matrix rules interpretation.
Check SGM v1.1 for a complete rewrite using BBB concepts.
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Captain K
post Apr 11 2007, 05:36 PM
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Another couple of uncertainties for our group--

1) how big/encompassing is "a node"? We haven't been sure how many steps a hacker would need to take if he was trying to access useful data remotely. Something like a small building might be controlled by one node, as in Aaron's recorded hacking session, but what about a large facility? What about a corporate/governmental info database, where a hacker might be looking for vehicle records or SIN information?

In other words, before a remotely located hacker gets into the important node where he can do whatever it is he wants to do, how many steps are there? Just one dice roll to gain access (either hacking on the fly or probing the target) and that's it? Or does he need to hack through many different nodes to get to the one he wants?


2) How do you differentiate between "normal access", "security access", and "admin access"? What kinds of stuff do you allow/disallow for your players at each access level? In our last session, when our hacker character was trying to match a license plate number to a registered owner, we couldn't think of anything that a legitimate user with security access could do on the node in question that a user with only normal access couldn't do, which felt (to me, the GM) like it made the job too easy for the player.

3) How do GMs out there come up with device ratings for their nodes? I know it's pretty much arbitrary, but if you could throw out some examples I'd feel more comfortable doing it myself.
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