 Shadowrun and Open Source, Open Source a solution for SR? |
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 Apr 14 2007, 07:22 PM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,002 Joined: 22-April 06 From: Canada Member No.: 8,494  |
Open Source comes from the computer world. It is a way of licencing software so that others can come along and change the software to meet their needs. A lot of Open Source software is given away for free but that is not always the case. Some business like Red Hat have become rich using the Open Source business structure. This structure could be applied to other business including publishing companies like Wizkids. What it would mean is the SR community would be given access to the development stage of new products, and they would be able to submit changes to the new product before it is published. These submitters would be 100% volunteer and WizKids would still retain veto rights on how the SR universe would play out. In the end WizKids R&D costs would go down but there would be new product leaks on every product they have. Also people would be free to modify and re-publish any released book, as the material printed would be the legal property of the SR community (ie anyone reading the material).
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Apr 14 2007, 07:34 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
Then the SR publishers lose the creative control of the SR world as people can reprint books and change the story in them. There would also be the issue of other companies making cheap versions of the SR books and selling them to cut into FanPro's SR profits making the game not worth publishing and forcing us to play crappy games based on 20 sided dice. |
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Apr 14 2007, 07:45 PM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,002 Joined: 22-April 06 From: Canada Member No.: 8,494 |
This is a very valid point and one of the major draw backs of an open source move. But if we do look at the other game system in question, you will notice that the penny and dime books are considered inferior to the main stream books that are published. I think that SR players (the true ones) will always buy WizKids books (I know I would). |
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Apr 14 2007, 07:50 PM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,251 Joined: 11-September 04 From: GA Member No.: 6,651 |
Open source: Good for apps, bad for p&p games.
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Apr 14 2007, 08:00 PM
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#5
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Posting this from my housemate's Linux box using an Open Source browser, I can say that I voted a definite 'No.'
FanPro are doing an excellent job in terms of quality. You can consider their model to be open source if you like as any of us can submit a proposal for material and potentially get published. In Open Source terms, FanPro would then be in the position of maintaining the main tree of the project, ensuring only bug-free additions with functionality that is actually desired are added. And that's a good thing. Whilst I personally would like to write and potentially sell some adventure modules for the game, which I'm told FanPro aren't interested in doing at the moment, I think the model as it is, is good. The sole problem seems to be allocating resource to producing the product, but that's not a problem with the model itself. So long as they don't come round and threaten me with lawyers for all the Shadowrun material that I have put on my site (and it would be self-harming to do so), then I'm happy with the current situation. |
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Apr 14 2007, 08:33 PM
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#6
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
There is no real point in asking for 'Open Source', as the rules are already open.
What you mean is a free licence. |
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Apr 14 2007, 08:38 PM
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#7
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Target Group: Members Posts: 41 Joined: 17-March 07 Member No.: 11,248 |
While FanPro's release schedule has admittedly been pretty slow thus far, the quality of the product they have released has been fantastic. I whole-heartedly stand behind them (drooling for more...).
I think the best thing we could all do as a community is draw as many more people in to the world of Shadowrun as possible. If we increase FanPro's sales of their current offerings, they'll be able to hire more folks for the editing and such, thus increasing their turn-around time on new releases. At least that's my theory and I'm sticking to it... :D |
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Apr 15 2007, 12:26 AM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
I too am a huge supporter of open source software. And much as I might get cancer for saying it, I think WoTC has the best model of Open Source RPGs, if you want to try that.
But I don't see any reason to apply Open Source to SR. SR is doing fine. It has good support. As Knasser said, anyone can submit for it, and get something contracted. What would there be to gain? You suggest that Wizkids R&D costs would drop, but that implies that Wizkids would stop producing, and just become a publisher. That's not what I want - if I wanted a group developed game, I have plenty of options. I want a game that is made by people I trust, playtested, kept consistent, and managed. |
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Apr 15 2007, 04:05 AM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 9-April 07 Member No.: 11,417 |
While open sourcing has created a fast amount of d20 material. I feel that game balance and quality was ruined.
Its very hard to manage adding new material without making the older material obsolite. But when you have everyone trying to make a buck, you get some of the worst rules, balance issues, and material. But as a company is it is hard to deny that open source has allowed Wizards of the... wait sorry. Hasboro to make a ton of cash. Personally I don't want to see WK's do the same thing, but if it came to a choice of open source vs shadow run dying out.... |
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Apr 15 2007, 04:13 AM
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#10
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
While I agree with most of your point, your attempt to define the process as "open source" is nonsensical. To be "open source", the manuscripts would have to be distributed in editable form, whatever they're using—compare distributing a TeX-format document to distributing a PDF generated from that format. It should be added that while it's never been tested in court, and I am not a copyright lawyer (this is not legal advice), the idea that game mechanics are protected by copyright is seriously questionable. Thus, while you might have to pony up for a lawyer to demonstrate it, you already have access to the non-fluff part of the game for free reuse (though not, obviously, the currently-existing description of it). Anyway, Shadowrun already has a fork. Make another if you want. ~J |
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Apr 15 2007, 04:57 AM
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#11
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Well considering that I hate 99.999% of the crap I've seen put out under DnD's OGL, I'm sure that you can guess how I voted... :cyber:
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Apr 15 2007, 06:33 AM
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#12
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,944 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
I did not see Ain't gonna happen with FanPro's fetish for secrecy.
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Apr 15 2007, 06:38 AM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: 20-June 06 Member No.: 8,754 |
I'd like to see something along the lines of DnD's SRD. Keep the basics and a limited amount of detail free, but leave some closed so there's a reason to buy the product beyond altruism for the Wizkids.
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Apr 15 2007, 03:11 PM
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#14
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,382 Joined: 22-February 06 From: Shadowland Member No.: 8,297 |
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if WK has any intention provide a license (pay or free) to develop other games based on the existing rules. While I agree with Kagetenshi on the issue of game mechanics not being protected by copyright, I don't have the money needed to fight a corporation in court - even one of the, relatively speaking, small size as SK or Fanpro. Any help would be appreciated.
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Apr 15 2007, 03:20 PM
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#15
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
The relevant part of Open Source as far as the original poster was concerned, seemed to be the way anyone could contribute. I pointed out that you could consider SR4 to be open source in that any can submit content. I have a lot of content on my site for example. The comparison to open source software as I understand it (I am not a programmer) is that FanPro maintain the main project tree and to make it into the official build it has to pass their quality control (i.e. they accept it). If you're talking about being able to edit and re-publish FanPro's own work, then no, the model breaks down, but I don't think this is what the original poster intended. Hence my comment that you could "consider" it open source, the implied qualifier being "for your purposes relevant to this discussion." |
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Apr 15 2007, 05:55 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 30-December 06 Member No.: 10,493 |
I doubt FanPro is going to prosecute anyone for making free fan material, and you can see every letter of every book they publish. Sometimes fans even have a say in the contents of an official book. That's basically open source already.
But any truely open version of SR should probably be reverse-engineered using a clean slate or other open system (not D&D20!). |
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Apr 15 2007, 08:45 PM
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#17
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
I like how "open source" it is now. We can make our own equipment, feats and adventures and add them, even modifying the entire system (SR3R), but we have no impact on the world that is Shadowrun (well, not without Fan Pro's seal of approval). I would consider that somewhat open source. I do wish Fan Pro made more space on their site for fan initiatives though, since I find oftentimes the things we make here are excellent additions.
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Apr 15 2007, 09:13 PM
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#18
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Shooting Target Group: Retired Admins Posts: 1,784 Joined: 28-July 04 From: Cleveland, OH Member No.: 6,522 |
Don't neglect the fact that Missions is entirely fan driven. If you've got ideas for NPCs, scnearios, and other content that you'd like to see included in the game world, that's the place to do it. |
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Apr 15 2007, 09:15 PM
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#19
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
..I followed the majority on this as well. I agree, the few things that FanPro has produced so far are of much better quality both content and from a physical standpoint (and I'm rough on game rule books).
My only disappointment, and yeah it is a fluff one, is with the the artwork in the Core Book. I look at that "other game's" books and see a lot of really terrific art. Much of the art in the SR4 Core rules looks way too rushed and unfinished. Too bad Squinky hadn't established himself earlier, his work in SRM and on his Character Drawings thread is is far superior to a good portion of the art in the Core rules. Meanwhile, the art in Runner Havens and Street Magic is definitely higher quality. Too bad when they did the reprint of the Core Book they didn't revise the interior art. I for one would purchase a new version of the book if it had better art. Anyway, back to the topic. When I go to my FLGS I notice tonnes of stuff for D&D & D20 in general. They have even taken to converting several of my other favourite systems over (Cthulu should feast on their mortal souls for that). I also agree, a lot of the stuff outside WoC's primary line is fairly mediocre. Yes the wait is a bit annoying, but I too know what FanPro is dealing with. I am afraid that with open sourcing we could end up with the "too many cooks in the kitchen" syndrome so to say. Everyone has their own idea of what they want the SR world to be like, Heck I most certainly have my own ideas. However I choose to keep them within the scope of the campaigns I run. I have done things that are no where near 100% true to canon as I am sure just about everyone who has GMed has. Heck I considered incinerating Royal Hill in the TT from space back in '56 and currently (2061) have a decade long conflict underway in the Balkans that could threaten to escalate into a major regional War. Would these events mess with the established timeline? Most certainly, which is why they would and should never see the light of day in the accepted SR canon. Imagine if the TT government fell 7 years earlier, what kind of repercussions that would have. What if say, the New Soviet became involved in the Balkan situation, what could that mean for the rest of the NEEC? This is why I like things the way they are, For Joe or Jane GM over there doesn't need to be concerned about what I have done over here, and vice versa. The rules are a framework, the world presented just one possible setting. How many times to I come across threads that talk about setting an SR campaign in other time periods. The last thing I would like to see at my FLGS is Shadowrun: The Roaring 20s or Shadowrun: 1950 when I am still waiting for Arsenal and Augmented to come out. |
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Apr 15 2007, 09:35 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 4-September 06 Member No.: 9,304 |
I too voted no.
I like the quality of the work that has been done so far, and like most, and a bit disappointed with the slippage in the release schedule. I too believe that Fanpro would hire more staff, produce and release more books if their sales went up. But, I am not too sure how realistic that is. There is still a need for playtesting, revisions, editing, printing. I am not sure that having 2 or 10 more on staff would change the timeline on those issues. The majority of the writting is done by Freelancers. I don't know if there would be enough other Freelancers available to put out more product, even if there was more editing and coordinating staff on hand. |
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Apr 15 2007, 09:36 PM
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#21
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
The one thing that I would like to do would be to write some modules for Shadowrun. I have done one on my site and I'm 2/3rds of the way through a new one (the one from the Carnival thread), but if I could make ones to sell, then I would do substantially larger and more professional pieces. I have thought about doing this with D&D which I could do, but I'm currently most interested in Shadowrun so I haven't. But I think a central control for the rules and source books is necessary, and aside from the atrocious slowness, FanPro have certainly shown themselves as excellent editors, playtesters and writers. -K. |
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Apr 16 2007, 12:02 AM
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#22
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
But that isn't Open Source at all. The idea is that anyone can modify, not that anyone can contribute. See the OSI's definition. Besides, the fundamental objection I'm making is the question of what is the "source". The closest analogous component to "source" in publishing is the files that generate the $FORMAT (probably Postscript, maybe PDF) that go to the printer to get turned into nice shiny physical pages. Without those, you can't edit the work in any meaningful sense. I think it would be totally awesome if they made their manuscripts open (note: does not imply "free", though does imply "Free"), especially the older ones, but I don't see any advantages for FanPro. ~J |
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Apr 16 2007, 12:06 AM
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#23
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Open sourcing Shadowrun would be one step shy of open sourcing GURPS.
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Apr 16 2007, 05:22 PM
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#24
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I understand what you're saying but again I point you to certain modifiers in my sentences such as "considered as" and "relevant parts." I just took the original poster to mean that he wanted to add material. Not rearrange or re-write parts of the existing material. If the latter, then yes, there's a problem. But I (a) don't think that was meant and (b) can't see much benefit. What I'm saying is that as far as adding material to Shadowrun, it is open source and the only effect I see of opening it further so that FanPro aren't in control of what goes in would be a reduction in quality. I'll modify that slightly. I can see some people making useful contributions. I expect we'd see an interesting FrankTrollman edition of Street Magic. But basically, I stand by my point. The OP already has everything he's asking for. Unless the OP wants to say I've misunderstood. |
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Apr 16 2007, 05:31 PM
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#25
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I don't think it's unfair to say that the OP has a certain portion of what he's asking for already. What I do have a problem with is the continued use of the term "Open Source" for it. You're accepting a redefinition of the term for the purposes of this discussion, while I'm declining to accept the same in the belief that doing so may result in continued confusion about what "Open Source" really is.
~J |
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