Proposal for recoil house rules, Suggestions and comments wanted Options

[ornot]

A fellow player in my SR4 game came up with what sounds like quite a good ruling on recoil.

At its root it involves applying the damage rating of the weapon as a recoil modifier, and giving the character recoil compensation equal to body+strength. This bonus recoil compensation is halved if the weapon is a two handed weapon used in one hand, and if any net recoil exceeds the characters body, the character cannot move in the same combat turn that they fire.

From my perspective this makes strength less of a dump stat, makes trolls more able to happily wield machine guns by virtue of their increased size, and discourages very weak characters from carrying around and firing assault rifles with impunity.

Note that this only applies to the damage rating of the weapon, not any changes caused by ammunition. Hence weapons firing flechettes as standard would need their ratings readjusted.

We plan to play-test this, but if anyone can think of any circumstances where this falls down, please let me know.

[Blade]

Didn't do the maths, but it looks interesting.
I take it you also add the burst-fire modifiers if needed.

[Edit] : Oh, and of course this only applies to weapon affected by recoil. I mean lasers or missile/grenade launcher shouldn't follow the same rules.

And a question : do you consider the recoil just for the second shot or does the modifier also applies for the first shot ?

[ornot]

Yes. Burst fire modifiers also apply, and weapons like rocket launchers are unaffected, as the damage for a rocket launcher results from the shell. I hadn't actually considered lasers, but exempting them is reasonable.

These recoil adjustments apply to all shots with the weapon, including the first. Although I'm no expert, I shouldn't have thought that a weak and skinny (str 1, bod 1) individual should be able to fire a gun without any penalty.

[Austere Emancipa...]

[ornot]

[Blade]

Yes I guess it's not recoil compensator but more of a "weight compensator" that can be applied to recoil when positive.

I like the idea because I always felt guilty when playing my 2 STR/BOD adept/hacker/face with his 2 warhawks. So guilty that most of the time I just used only one...

[Austere Emancipa...]

I am well under average in strength and endurance, ie. STR 2/BOD 2, and I never had trouble firing the RK 62. The really small kids, the ones who are clearly closer to STR 1/BOD 1, do have problems holding their guns straight, but it might not be a good idea to create a new system of penalties for ranged combat centered around the idea characters with more than one physical attribute at 1.

If you're just thinking of the mass factor, the damage code of a weapon is a bad basis for the penalties. For example, shotguns and sport rifles can be chambered in really powerful calibers without being much larger or heavier than their brethren. There are repeating magnum shotguns (12 gauge 3.5", 10S in SR3) and sport rifles (e.g. .300 Weatherby Magnum, .338 Winchester Magnum, .375 H&H, .376 Steyr, 12S/14S/10D in SR3) weighing less than the assault rifle I carried. No healthy adult human would have trouble holding these guns.

On the other hand, many machine guns and sniper rifles are much bulkier than assault or sport rifles firing the same cartridges. The M249, in the same caliber as the 5.3lb M4 Commando, weighs 16.7lbs empty, enough to make accuracy of the average adult male suffer significantly unless it is fired prone and/or supported.

But that doesn't help you at all, unless you want to come up with weights for all the guns yourself. Making the penalties be based on just the weapon category is a very bad idea, with the heaviest weapons in each category easily weighing 1.5-2.5x what the lightest weapons do in similar calibers.

[ornot]

Certainly interesting AE, but I suspect that you may have a different interpretation of average strength and body than me, and by my standards I suspect you are under-estimating your own 'stats'.

Obviously firearms come in such a wide variety of forms that to exhaustively and accurately convert them all into SR4 versions would be horribly time consuming, and of limited utility to all but the most dedicated gun enthusiasts.

Basing this 'recoil penalty' on the weapon's damage rating is simply an easy and convenient way to model the wieldiness of the weapon. Many of the weapons in the RAW have special recoil modifiers built into them (such as the Ares Alpha), which could be applied to particularly well designed weapons if one so wished.

I have to admit I'm mostly interested in whether this change to the rules would have any significant impact on game balance, either positive or negative, rather than how closely they model real life (as we can probably all agree that there are many aspects where the SR4 model falls down).

[mfb]

the thing is, as AE said, damage code is not a good basis for what you're talking about. smaller weapons do not necessarily have smaller damage codes. you'd be better off basing this on the class of the weapon (light pistol, heavy pistol, SMG, AR, etc.) if you didn't want to make up new stats for every single weapon.

[Random]

You seem to want to discount those around you. If you simply want new rules that's your choice, However if you want a realistic system then as others have said the power of a gun does not directly translate into its weight. As for Austere Emancipator's view on body and strength differing from yours, you may be making a big assumption.

I personally have taken a 9 year old boy and girl to the range and taught them to fire a Ruger Redhawk .44 Magnum with 240gr loads with a MV of 1000-1400FPS. (For those of you not familiar this is a more powerful version of "Dirty Harry's gun, with full power solid loads)

They were able to shoot quite well, especially since they had few Psycological preconcieved ideas about what they could or could not handle. Neither played sports or worked out and both were well under 100lbs. If thats not a body and strength of 1 or 2 I don't know what is.

The quote above "Small children need compact, polymer frame single stack .380 ACPs with really light triggers" I would assume reffers more to the childs small hand size as well as the comfort level for a trigger pull. I am 200+ pounds and decent strength and even I preffer a light trigger.

A troll useing a man sized gun would be at the same minuses as a kid for nearly the same reasons. The gun was not made for the trolls size or the sensitivity of his finger strength. He would find it impossible to fire many normal weapons because he couldn't get his finger in the trigger guard, the saftey was not positioned so he couldn't reach it with his thumb (IE, his palm is covering the saftey), or the slide is ripping off his fingers and flesh because it is above the handle grip.

A gun designed for a small person to hold can fire pretty much the same power loads as most "manly guns". Just look at some of the derringers and the rounds they fire.

As for recoil, in reality recoil does not effect the first round in either a burst or single shot mode (Except psycologicly). As long as the weapon is aimed well, then the first round will find it's target.

Random Unicorn

[Demon_Bob]

My biggest problem with adding recoil reduction rules using Str and Body is that it tends to encourage the Troll Combat Mook.

[Kyoto Kid]

...I've fired the Redhawk/Blackhawk series with little if any control difficulty and definitely do not consider myself having even the "average human:" 3 Strength. On top of it I also have arthritis which would put me at an Infirm flaw of rating 2 (in SR3 terms).

[edit]
As to recoil mods, I liked the way Cannon Companion handled it in SR3. We can only hope it reappears in Arsenal

[Narmio]

I reintroduced the old "One point of recoil per each full 4 points of Strength" rule, and it seems to have worked well. It gives sams and gunbunnies the incentive to put their strength up at 4, at least, which does seem to be missing otherwise.

Recoil isn't such a big deal in SR4, and this seems to be enough to remove most of
what you're worried about without too much extra hassle of new rules and provoking the gun nuts.

[Shrike30]

I was taught to shoot sometime around the age of 10. Handguns ranging in recoil from .22 to .44, and 12 gauge shotguns are what I learned on. I was not a particularly large 10 year old (hit my growth spurt around 12). Recoil certainly didn't affect my accuracy on the first shot, although I'll not claim my refire rate with the .44 was particularly high.

One issue you've got here is that you've just created a system where any trog is essentially immune to the effects of your rule, and one that actually puts more than the bare minimum amount of points into body and strength is capable of using something like a Smartgun on full auto all the time, without really eating much in the way of penalties. I hate to imagine what they could do with something like a White Knight LMG.

Smartgun has 2 points of built-in RC, ignoring the folding stock because Mr. Ork Ganger is holding his Smartgun sideways out the window of his buddy's car. Smartgun base damage is 5, making a long burst, under your system, give 14 points of recoil. "Sprawl Ganger" archetype in the BBB has 7 body, 6(7) strength (racial equivalent of a 4 in both stats, with a cyber boost on strength). He goes through ammo pretty quick, but he dishes out 14(p) after autofire every turn, with no penalties.

Even if he was running Ork average stats (6 body, 5 strength is like 3/3 for a human), when you add in the 2 points of recoil on the Smartgun, he can rip it up on autofire with a grand total of -1 for a penalty, or 0 if he actually uses the stock of the SMG. If he "dumps" Strength, his minimum is 3 points... still only a -2 if he uses the stock, and we're assuming he dumped it for something besides Body.

This gets sillier with Trolls... racial average troll (7/7) can fire an Ultimax HMG 2 from the shoulder on full auto with zero penalties. Slap a scope on top, and he's capable of engaging targets out to 3/4 of a mile with zero penalties imposed upon him by his weapon. Most games have balance issues when you get a character in play who can dump a 16(p)/-3 hit every turn to anything inside of 1200 meters with no penalties.

[TheOneRonin]

Real autofire for those who think Hollywood full-auto depictions are accurate:


HK G3 Battle Rifle (7.62x51mm NATO)
Full-Auto

HK G36 Assault Rifle (5.56x45mm NATO)
Full-Auto

HK MP5 Submachine Gun (9x19mm Parabellum)
Full-Auto

HK MP5SD Integrally Suppressed SMG (9x19mm Parabellum)
Full-Auto

HK UMP Submachinegun (.45 ACP)
Full-Auto

HK21E Belt Fed Machinegun (7.62x51mm NATO)
Full-Auto

HK MP7 PDW (4.6x30mm)
Full-Auto


To borrow a phrase beloved by one of the DS Forums Gun Experts, Shadowrun Full-auto and recoil rules have "six pounds of dick" in common with real life.

[TheOneRonin]

Oh, and this one too because I like the P90 and to prove that I know HKs aren't the only firearms out there:

FN P90 PDW (5.7x28mm)
Full-Auto

[Random]

[ornot]

Those clips were very interesting. I also appreciate that realistically speaking even a relatively small and lightly built person can fire a larger weapon. I admit that my own experience with handguns is nil, although I have fired shotguns and automatic rifles (12 gauge clay pigeon shooting, and an SA80 alongside its LSW variant if you really want to know. Even that little experience makes me somewhat unusual here in the UK).

But as TheOneRonin points out, the SR4 system is not real but an attempt to model, somewhat cinematically but in a balanced manner, professional criminals in a future dystopia.

Just to clarify my point, I was looking at a change to the rules to make strength more important and discourage casual use of the larger guns. The change does fall down rather when faced with trogs, due to their enhanced strength and body, (thanks for your comments Shrike30 and Demonbob). I figure that trogs should be able to better wield larger guns, but giving them such an advantage is unbalanced. I shall ponder the situation more.

[mfb]

i think the SR3 method of simply having high Str provide recoil compensation (personally, i think high Bod would make more sense, but whatever) is your best option. the system you've proposed is neat; i like the fact that it re-uses stats for different purposes. and it's not more unrealistic than some other parts of the game. but i wouldn't use it myself, because i prefer to reinforce realism than add to non-realism.

[Shrike30]

I actually preferred it linked to Strength. Bod is closer to stamina and endurance, whereas sheer physical bulk would likely be more directly related to Strength.

[mfb]

i don't see that as being the case. body allows you to absorb hits, resist toxins, and other matters that are size-related. a gymnast can be quite strong without being bulky at all. at some point, for realism, extremes of strength should be related to a rise in body, but it's still body that denotes bulk.

[ornot]

In the body vs. strength arguement, I admit that I come down on body. Body does limit the armour you can wear, for example. But from a balance point of view Strength would be best, since you get so many perks out of a high Body already, and very little benefit from strength.

[cREbralFIX]

No amount of strength (or body) can stop recoil. It is so fast that the body cannot do anything about it.

Managing recoil is done with good technique and technology. You train your eye and body for it. I cannot really describe it...it's more of a physical and mental "feeling" than anything else. You know it's coming, then it's gone. Even with fully automatic weapons, you have to use good technique.

One idea is to change recoil modifiers depending upon skill level, technology, and weapon type. For example, the new Russian AK changes the internals of the bolt such that it fires exceptionally fast. It fires so quickly that two shots feel like one (there's that "feeling" thing again). It loads the second round as the bolt goes back, thereby eliminating the need for it to go all the way back (and slam into the frame). Another new technology (mentioned in another gun thread) redirects the bolt downward. This seems to me to be the most innovative design, but I have yet to shoot the gun.

Another innovation from STI, is the "True Sight" (www.stiguns.com. Click "Complete Guns" -> click "True Sight" -> click the center picture of the front sight). It's really a trick: the front sight doesn't move, allowing your eye to stay with it during recoil.

The oldest trick in the book is to just add weight to the front of the gun. For handguns, the *second oldest* trick is to grip the gun as high as possible. Another is to use a polymer frame that flexes during recoil.

My vote for this would simply change recoil compensation modifiers as follows:

Skill Level TN Modifier from the book (ie: add to the book's normal recoil mods)
1 +3
2 +2
3 +1
4 0
5 -1
6 -1
7 -2
8+ -3

Note: This only applies to recoil modifiers and will not modify the TN to hit for the first shot or anything covered by mechanical recoil compensation.

Technology is already accounted for in this system.

So, if a shooter with a Pistol 5 fires two rounds in the same action, normally he would have a +1 to the second shot. Due to his skill level, the second shot would have no modifier. If the pistol had a compensator (gas vent 1), then this rule would not apply.

[cREbralFIX]

I haven't decided about weapon type. Power of the cartridge certainly affects recoil. However, it may just get too complex to be practical. I'd rather have a simple system that I can remember on the fly.

[TheOneRonin]