 CARNIVAL, New Shadowrun Adventure |
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 May 5 2007, 05:48 PM
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#26
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Uncle Fisty  Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928  |
They've retired the characters after running them for a few years. Karma was getting well along in the triple digits. As for the adventure, I agree that tailoring is nice. I just think that writing out a bit more of a detailed guide , and then letting GMs tailor specifically , would be a good way to go. I can understand being finished with a project though. |
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May 5 2007, 07:40 PM
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#27
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Yes they would. I was regarding them as aspected because they were part of Rebus's cabal and because I gave Rebus some leeway in how he wants to set up the background count with the geomancy metamagic. I couldn't see them sticking around if they weren't aspected. How an adept becomes aspected to Black Magic I'm not 100% sure, but I figured participating in Rebus's rituals on a regular basis would probably get them through, somehow. Glad you like it though. Do me a favour and if you do run it, post back here to say how it went. The feedback is very valuable to me. Thanks, -K. |
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May 6 2007, 10:33 PM
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#28
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
I will DEFINATELY run this for my group - only problem (?) is that two of the members actually are Black Magicians - an Adversary full mage and a Siren Mystic Adept, so I may have to fiddle a bit with that aspected rating first.
Stats for Harlequin are too low IMO, but that's been discussed elsewhere and I'll use my own anyway =) Very good use of him, though! I will return with feedback in a few weeks or so when I can fit this into the campaign, and I'm also looking to run your other module and will give feedback on that too. |
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May 6 2007, 10:50 PM
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#29
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: I don't know why, but it honestly never occured to me that the players would be Black Magicians. Pretty short-sighted. I suppose you could roll with it and do the whole corruption of power thing, luring the players in. Not sure how well that would work, though. You'd have to know your players very well. You could aspect the carnival to the Worm totem. As I just made it up, players are unlikely to have picked it at chargen. Not quite RAW, but it would just about work. Would need to play up the cult aspects. I would suggest Hedge Magic as an alternative tradition but it's female only and though that would work for Rebus, it would be problematic for Piotr. Still, you could swap his gender too and then you'e actually done. In fact, as the players slowly uncover an all female, pagan cult, it could be just as creepy. I'm picturing something like the cult in Wicker Man (the original) with blood sacrifice and corn gods, etc. The adepts could get by just by participating in the rituals, perhaps. The odd daub of blood on the forehead goes a long way, imo. ;) I don't know, really. These are all that spring immediately to mind. But I'll appreciate the feedback. Out of a couple of hundred downloads, you'll be the first person to ever give me a run story! In fact, it inspires me to go and upload something new to my website... *goes to find FTP client* :D |
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May 7 2007, 12:19 AM
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#30
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
hehe... I hadn't thought of that either. We actually have three characters in our game that follow that Black Magic tradtition. They'd just love to do this run, I'm sure. Of course, they'd likely team up with the "bad guy' though. :D
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May 7 2007, 12:25 AM
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#31
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
That's fine. Black Magicians are not legendary for peacefully dividing up the power amongst themselves. If they really want to team up with Rebus, then perhaps they could do him a small favour as a token of good will. You see there's an elf he wants them to kill... |
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May 7 2007, 11:18 PM
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#32
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
ROFL - Now THAT kind of thinking I like! :vegm: My group is not likely to team up with Rebus - they are more likely to try and steal, copy, or study anything he has that can be useful to them. My main concern would be increasing the power of my players with the aspected background count - then again, if they can be convinced to go after the annoying elf, they'd need all the dice they can get! :grinbig: I might run it as it is, but I was thinking of Hedge Witchcraft myself actually. Rather than change the genders of the main players though, I see no reason why Hedge Withcraft can't be practiced by men too - subordinate to the women, of course, so Rebus would have to change sex. |
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May 7 2007, 11:52 PM
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#33
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Again? :rotfl: Poor transgender Rebus... of course, as Hedge Magic is traditionally passed down a matriarchal line, then it would explain why he chose to become a little more feminine. But you know, hedge magic could actually end up creepier than Black Magic. Latin and circles and all that never quite have the same impact as a little straw doll with human hair pinned to its head. |
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May 9 2007, 10:10 PM
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#34
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
Yeah, I agree - all the naturalistic stuff and being a possession tradition gives it a lot of potential for a twisted, horror-like setting and story.
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May 28 2007, 11:21 AM
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#35
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
Alright, I've modified the setting and made some alterations/upgrades and I'll most likely be running 'The Rescue' at the end of this week - after that, I'll return and let you know how it all played out.
Here are the alterations I made: [ Spoiler ] My group is very magic oriented and will be severely crippled by the domain, so this will be quite a challenge for them. Here's an overview of their abilities: [ Spoiler ] Looking this over, I'm starting to think I should reduce the Aspect to 3, but we'll see. It could be interesting to watch them solve problems without magic, and when faced with alot of magic opposition. |
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May 28 2007, 12:02 PM
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#36
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
This sounds good! I don't know whether the aspect should be 3 or 4. But either way, the players are going to have to rely on their smarts to get out with their target. At least it's more obvious with 4. I love what you've done with Hotfoot / Bramble. Really fits the atmosphere and the Hedge Witchcraft. I'm starting to think that Hedge Witchcraft is better anyway. I have a new group starting next month so I might copy that.
Couple of notes: Balamohan is a man's name. Bandhula or Bandhura would be female equivalents. Secondly, make sure you have some good reasons for the player's sticking around. When they realise how much of a disadvantage the home terrain is, they may well be tempted to get out of there fast and try something else. My approach is to put strong deadlines on the rescue, but another idea I had was about hooking the players in to the Carnival by having Rebus either put some sort of brand on them or get hold of some ritual links to them. They seriously do not want to leave with that in his possession and if they do, then it lets Rebus hook them back in. Especially if they hadn't realised sHe had taken them. Rebus also has the supporting mages and an aspected base to do it from, too! Sounds like they have a good team, though. My predicitions - Siren will run aground when she finds that most of the opposition are female / transgender and will get herself into deep trouble with one of them, Sin will initially worry when the raven grows weak and also end up having to mind control either Kodiak or Calibur to protect him from Rebus's illusions and manipulations. And the hacker will grin very very widely. Anyway, I hope it's creepy, that's the main thing. Look forward to hearing about it! -K. |
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May 28 2007, 01:15 PM
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#37
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
What is the level of opposition that the adventure is writen for? At 0 Karma, the runners are at Magic 2 at the very most or Magic 1(almost certainly). My players will simply run away. And when the antagonist comes after them, he'd be fighting them on their home turf.
The primary antagonist can die to the usual tactic of a sniper bullet. A bomb run (for more morally ambiguous PCs - kill them all, let the Dweller sort them out) will ruin the entire scenario once they assense Harlequin (the joke's on the antagonist because Harle probably will survive - Boom, hahaha!). The initial recon has already been done. The runners might not even go into the carnival at all and employ the standard sniper bullet tactic. The death of the ring leader should satisfy the triad leader. If they really have to go in as in the "find the telesma" scenario, they'd send in the hacker and sniper cover him. |
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May 28 2007, 01:42 PM
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#38
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
You make a lot of assumptions. The biggest of which is that the players will know what's going on. The idea that they will learn someone may or may not have disappeared inside a visiting carnival and follow that up by shooting the leader of the carnival (who they will distinguish somehow) with a sniper rifle from a nearby rooftop is... not one that I consider likely. And quite possibly, that would just get the kidnapee killed, anyway. As to your players simply running away... well that's true of a lot of adventures. If they don't want the challenge then there's not a lot that can be done. If you're running the Rescue scenario then there's no reason why anyone from the Carnival needs to pursue the PCs. If nothing is done, then the Carnival "wins" and the players had best go find a different job. There are a range of adventure options in there and the idea is that the GM can work this into his or her campaign in a variety of ways. The PCs could need information from Rebus or better, Delphine. Ultimately it's intended to be horror and that requires a dangerous foe that is more than initially meets the eye. The people of the Carnival are intelligent and well connected. It's not meant to be a straight fight and there are a number of suggestions for how to prevent it becoming so. And nobody is going to assense Harlequin unless Harlequin wishes it. Re-read the stats! If they want to simply throw bombs into the carnival then they're likely to kill a lot of people. Not all adventures are suitable for all people. I suspect your game is more dungeony. This is more in the way of mystery-horror. |
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May 28 2007, 02:15 PM
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#39
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
No. The sniper scenario occurs for the Rescue scenario, if a posse of Triad hitters cannot get the leader's son back... Remember if 8-9(2 to 3 is unlikely given it is the Triad's leader's son, 4-5 is unlucky and the size was described as several) Triad Adepts cannot persuade the guy to release the hostage, what good is 3-4 shadowrunners? I certainly don't hope the runners don't ask the Triad boss for more information or I won't put it past my PCs not to be able to obtain that information.
The run away scenario occurs when the runners have done something for Rebus(as suggested by you - Laying Low or Carnival as Johnson). If the Carnival moves away, they'd hit them on the move since the ambient mana doesn't move around and then there are less innocents as the carnival is moving. Why won't Harlequin want allow the runners to assense him? Why not? He doesn't give a flying F anymore, remember? I am not questioning his ability, I am questioning his intentions. If you don't allow the players to know that he is the Deus Ex, why would the PCs ask him for help(remember your Cha+Leadership remark, why suggest that unless you want the PCs to ask him to help and why would the PCs ask him if he was just another clown)? My players tend to think outside the box. They'd find a way to short circuit it - dumping bombs into the carnival once people leave the place counts - "mysterious explosion hits carnival, circus performers killed in predawn blaze". |
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May 28 2007, 03:14 PM
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#40
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Well I believe that I described him in the adventure as being sick and tired of the world knocking on his door demanding he save it. There's a quote in there about "if people don't like wars, they should stop having them" or something like that. His motivation for concealing his real identity is ample. But that doesn't stop the GM dropping hints that he is more than an elf in a deck chair. Remember that the players don't need to know that he is Harlequinn. The GM can quite happily role-play conversations about responsibility or whatever with him as an ordinary bloke. If the players don't bother interacting with "ordinary" people then more fool them. Anyway, this is how I intend to play him when the game reaches this adventure (ironic that someone else is going to run my own adventure before me).
Well I'm inclined to say that this is why the players are the heroes. They can deal with things that nobody else can. That and they're expendable. Let's look at what I actually wrote:
So you're a local triad boss. All you know is that your son went to a carnival and didn't come back. Maybe something happened there, or on the way or on the way back. Maybe something happened there but it's nothing to do with the carnival itself. So you send a few guys there to ask a few questions (and not as you said, 9 adepts for goodness sake! ). They all come back heavily disturbed. The triad mage says there's something very bad in the carnival. That's all you know. I'm sorry, Toturi, I just don't see your next response being to position snipers on roof-tops and put bullets into people. I think hiring some competent professionals who can root around, investigate and not cause you any more problems if they die is a very sensible solution. If you really don't think it's plausible then the kid's father becomes a local corp executive. You're the GM, I'm sure you can think of a dozen ways to get the PCs in there. But this way works for me.
Well again, these are things in the GM's control. If the carnival moves away. Maybe it's here for the whole month. That wont help the PCs if they need to resolve things now. And the "Laying Low" and "Carnival as Johnson" plot hooks aren't about combat anyway. The first is about mixing the players up in an allegiance that is a lot more sinister than they realise and the second is about getting the players working for the carnival. They're both suggestions for strong, role-playing scenarios, morality games, etc. There's not even a reason included in there for the players to have a violent confrontation with the carnival. Basically, players will have to think outside the box to beat this adventure. The villains are just too villainous. But for all the things you are raising as game-breakers, I can think of easy solutions, as shown. It's not a dungeon adventure. It's a horror-mystery. And everything you have raised implies a complete lack of mystery and a psychic awareness on the part of your players. Either that or they are psychopaths who murder people with long-range sniper rifles for no apparent reason. |
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May 28 2007, 03:29 PM
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#41
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Yes, but I run games with RAW, remember? If the game says Triad boss, I say Triad boss. You say if son no good anymore, kill person responsible, I say, if son no good anymore, kill person responsible. If the carnival stays, they don't go there. Until they move. Take the rescue scenario for example. Social Adept - etiquette the J for more info, hit appropriate contacts for more info. Hacker - Data Search for more info, drone surveillance for more info. Mage - Assensing. Adept - Perception. The game is meant as a horror mystery. The game breaks if the players insist on not playing your game and doing it by the numbers. Funny you asked mentioned psychic awareness, my current group of PCs is about all information. Everyone has a method of breaking the bank concerning information. Divining, Perception, Assensing, Data Search, Contacts, etc. I have to go on the assumption that they find out everything, including the fact that Harlequin is there. I won't put it pass them not to be able to do it. If they find out that the Carnival is detrimental to their continued survival, a violent confrontation may not be out of the question. It is easy if you ignore the potential that the PCs will turn it into a dungeon crawl, I am looking precisely at it being a dungeon crawl and whether the threads will unravel if the PCs rollplay with more dice than Harlequin. |
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May 28 2007, 06:06 PM
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#42
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
EDIT: Toturi - I don't know why, but I have this image of your stuck in the shower for days because the bottle says "Rinse and Repeat" and doesn't specify an escape condition for the loop.
I have three house rules. One sprint action per turn, my own way of working out a character's maximum weight lifted and that cyberware grade affects cyberlimb capacity. I'm about as RAW as they come. I don't think there's anything that breaks RAW in the module except that Harlequin has more than one Exceptional Quality (which I mentioned). Given that most GMs don't even stat the guy, I think that's forgivable. I'm really, genuinely not seeing your problem here. You've given me nothing that I as a GM can't easily deal with if I wish. And I don't mean that I will bend reality to preserve a plot. I mean things that naturally follow. And while I'm happy to try and help any GM who's players are getting away from them, I think you're not actually motivated by that. If you're still concerned that they players are going to run all over you, then I'll go through your points below. But no adventure can cover everything and nor should it. A GM is required to think on his or her feet always. I'm personally quite pleased that everything you've raised actually has been covered by the adventure already. You sound like you want the players to lose, in that you're determined to close off any "outside the box" thinking that they might come up with. And at the same time, you have a problem with the opposition being too powerful to defeat in a direct confrontation. If I sound as though I'm taking this personally - I am. For two reasons - firstly because I put a very great amount of effort into producing this adventure and I am very proud of it. If people want something bigger (than 25 pages) and more thoroughly filled out, then IMR can go ahead and pay me to write an adventure. Secondly, which is more to the point however, the issues that you are raising are unfair. There are easy and internally consistent counters to your problems.
One of the sample plotlines (the default) is to investigate what happened to a missing teenager and rescue him if need be and avenge his death if it's too late. You're saying that the players will actually avoid going to the carnival and then launch an attack when the carnival moves on in a month? What good does any of that do? If you read the scenario, you'll see that the boy is still alive. But I doubt he would be by the time the carnival finally moved. Sorry, but if the PCs don't produce results, then their employer is just going to find someone else who'll actually do the job.
Taking them in order, the Johnson doesn't have more info; appropriate contacts may turn up the Vory connections which is a good thing (gives the players another angle of approach), Hacker & Data Search - the module lists degrees of information available according to the number of hits the hacker gets; drone surveillance may reveal the boss's son hanging around the carnival - great! It may also tip off Lonestar or the Vory, however - this is taking place in the middle of the city, remember. To be honest, player success is a good thing. The opposition is very dangerous and they should be doing this sort of stuff. For goodness sake, I wrote out the degree of information that players get according to the hits on their matrix search! The adventure encourages this sort of behaviour! Why do you see it as a problem? Because you think players will immediately go from finding out their target is in there to targeting NPCs they don't know are involved with long distance weaponry? I just don't see that jump and if they did they'd likely just get their target dead in response and fail the mission. Shadowrun adventures are supposed to reward leg work. But it hasn't broken the game. They know the son is alive. They might be able to lure him out which is even better. Players should be rewarded for smarts. But what happens then? The son is heavily under the control of the carnival (Laylah in particular). So do they have to go back and try to banish Laylah to break her hold? Negotiate with Rebus to release him? Or maybe Rebus has realised who the boy is and will prevent him leaving the Carnival even if the players trick the boy himself. What do the players do then? Go in and get him? These are the things that actually make it an adventure. You want your players to be doing this sort of thing. It's not a problem.
Well the game wont be much fun if they just straffe the place with long range weaponry, that is true. But as I'm pointing out, they don't know what's going on, the techniques you are listing will yield clues but not the degree of information you seem to think it will, and a violent assault will probably not achieve their goal of rescuing the NPC they're supposed to rescue.
If they're rolling more dice than Harlequin ( :eek: , btw) then you need to adjust the power level of the adventure. As author of the module, I hereby grant you permision to do so. Does this solve the problem? Really, I am trying to help you here. I am offering lots of suggestions about how you can keep the game on track which entirely fit with the plot as written. In fact for the most part, I'm just pointing out what was already written there. But I don't believe that you're really putting much effort into dealing with your own players which is a problem for yourself, not me. I can think of lots of ways to deal with the issues you pose and most of its already implicit in the adventure already. |
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May 29 2007, 02:23 AM
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#43
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
OK. I was exagerating the dice part but not much else. The crux of the problem still lies in the need to keep the identity of the main villian hidden. The stumbling block in my game is that the players/PCs will not stop digging until they are sure that there is nothing left to know and they'd use their dice rolls to ensure that they do. For example, "We have max hits on the Astral Perception, we have max hits on the Matrix Data Search, and we have max hits on the other information sources as well, we know X, Y and Z from these. So with what we know, what does my PC thinks is likely to be happening here with his many many dice? IE: Just tell us the plot and the villain of the piece. Just be glad we aren't asking you to provide us with the easiest solution to the scenario, yet. But we could." So putting aside the player problem(which I am perfectly happy with and do not see a problem with their gaming style anyway), does your scenario have anything to deal with a group that can strip the mystery away and go straight for the source? As I am pointing out, despite your scenario trying to hide the villian before the PCs get in, they will know and what is recommended that the GM does when they do? Not allowing them to know despite their PCs being built to know is a little too railroady, but I can certainly run it that way if your scenario requires it.
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May 29 2007, 03:25 AM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 10-September 05 From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America Member No.: 7,727 |
...just to chip in: If I had this kind of players and, as it is obvious that most of the fun from this adventure would come from the mystery in it, I would have the Carnival members react to the players' intruding behaviour. Because they would do something, wouldn't they?
If I have read their descriptions correctly, they are more than able to (try) and mess with the heads of anyone trying to dig too deep, and I am not only talking about Rebus... So, would group of Sherlock runners X be able to strip the mystery away at ONCE and do it INVISIBLY? I don't know, I tend to think that solving mysteries involves far more development than just having a couple of skills and rolling a few dice. Of course they can get lots of information with magic, etiquette and hacking, but it is quite simple (from my point of view, at least) to make the process of learning such information interesting and the stripping of the mystery climatic and shocking. On the other hand, presently I am running a couple of campaigns that are too different in tone and mood for the Carnival to be appropriate just now, so I kind of understand what's happening to you. I do not think that is a problem of the adventure itself, though. Cheers, Max |
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May 29 2007, 08:31 AM
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#45
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Toturi. This has been established in other threads - you run your game in way that is different to anyone else I have ever come across. There is no way that I would allow my players to roll some dice and then ask me how to solve the adventure. That said, the adventure already gives the information received according to the maximum hits on Matrix, Astral Perception and Psychometry on pages 17 and 15 respectively. The matrix section also details what information is available on the Carnival node and the Vory node that it links to. Note that Astral Perception wont tell players anything other than the fact the Carnival is heavily aspected. To get more specific information they need the Psychometry metamagic. The information gained according to various hits is listed on the same page. Maximum hits on the Matrix or Psychometry rolls will give the players vital clues which may help them survive / succeed, but there's nothing that will give them the full details of what is going on. As regards other contacts, I don't think there are many that would be able to give significant information on the newly arrived Carnival. Maybe Vory contacts, but that would tip off the Carnival that they're being investigated and it would only reveal some of the criminal side to the Carnival, not the magical side. If you, as GM, lay out all the information to the players at the start, before they even approach the Carnival, then you have created a problem. The adventure as written is very specific on what information is available. When it says "4+ hits" it means "4+ hits." If you want to run the adventure differently, then my only suggestion is that a direct violent approach will result in the death of the person they are supposed to be rescuing. It would be easy enough to say that the Carnival knows why it's being targetted and responds to an attack by slitting the throat of the Triad boss's son. At that point, the players have failed and quite rightly so for such a lack of strategy. Basically, I see you creating your own problems here, Toturi, but I hope the final bit above is useful in making the adventure function in a game where players have access to GM only information. |
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May 29 2007, 02:03 PM
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#46
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
I will give out only the information that is available as per the hits because that is specified in your adventure. But what I am asking is what happens after the PCs get those pieces of information. Say they take those pieces of information and one of them has Divining. He asks,"Who is the primary villian or villians behind the missing Triad boss's son?" and makes 4+ net hits. After getting that answer, he Divines again, "What is the best way to effect a rescue of the Triad boss's son?" Alternatively or in addition he takes those info from the 4+ hits and feeds it to the team tactician who asks,"OK, we know all these. Can I roll my Profession Military/Tactics/SWAT/Magic to determine the best way to effect a rescue?" It is not inconceivable that you'd have players that are not good at real life tactics to ask you the GM for advice for something their PCs would/should know. If you want to railroad it such they get the runaround and played by Rebus and that Harle will eventually jump in to save them due to their own heroics, their Cha + Leadership, etc, then I'd follow the book. The PCs need not have access to GM only info, but they can use their abilities to make the requirement of those information irrelevant and jump straight to the end result. Also are you suggesting that the death of the son will result in mission failure? I read the Rescue as killing the people responsible for the kid's kidnapping/murder as equally acceptable and furthermore, by taking down the Carnival and putting a dent in the Vory business, the father would be appeased and would more likely blame the Vory for his child's death, especially if the runners can spin it so(again the 4+ hits on the skill roll means you can piss on his mom kind of thing). By the way, my players are business process reengineering consultants IRL, so short circuiting the fundamentals how an adventure works comes naturally for them. |
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May 29 2007, 10:43 PM
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#47
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
the players can't ask "who is behind the kidnapping". that would not be a question about an event in the future. i would also require that they be more specific than "what is the best way to attack". i would allow them to ask what would happen if they walk in and start asking questions, for example.
thirdly, they need to be able to assense whatever they are divining. furthermore, divining is by no means guaranteed accurate... the players shouldn't know if they're getting reliable info or not, in my opinion, so just acting on a divination can be dangerous. finally, i would probably apply a penalty to divining something within an area aspected against your tradition... but that would be a houserule, i think. |
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May 29 2007, 11:35 PM
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#48
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Okay. I've offered what I think are a lot of suggestions for how to deal with the issues that you (Toturi) raised. And I'm glad that MaxHunter and Jaid have both supported me with similar points.
I don't want this thread to turn into another one about Toturi's gaming style. They go on forever and never get resolved. I really think that the issues that are being raised here are specific to your unusual approach to running a game. Also, as Jaid has just pointed out with great clarity, divining as written in the book does not work in the way that you described. Honestly, Toturi, I feel that I am not helping a GM who is trying to integrate the adventure into his game, but that I am being drawn into some argument for its own sake. And I feel this because nothing in what you've written suggests you are trying to do this. You are the GM. You have a responsibility to try and keep the game fun and prevent it being broken. Especially when it's broken due to such an odd style of playing that you yourself are responsible for. If there's going to be another ongoing debate on issues that are perculiar to your gaming style, I have to ask for it to be split off into another thread because it's not going to be relevant to most people who read this thread or want to comment on / criticsize the adventure. -K. EDIT: I don't mean to sound as though I bear you (Toturi) any ill-will. If it is of any help in dealing with Divining issues, remember that the Carnival has a very talented diviner themselves. Anything the PCs do in that regard, Delphine would be more than capable of doing as well. In which case the PCs can't expect things they do due to Divining not to be countered. This is probably only relevant to the way you seem to play Divining. Not generally, of course. |
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May 30 2007, 01:28 AM
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#49
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
My apologies, I'll PM you if I got more questions then. I have a responsibility to try and keep the game fun for my players but I do not have a responsibility to prevent it from being broken, if canon/the adventure as written is broken, then so be it. Jaid, thanks for the reminder that Divining is for future events. Knasser - you PM box is full: [ Spoiler ]
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May 31 2007, 11:14 AM
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#50
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
Toturi. From what I can tell, even a group with massive social skills, hacking skills and divining/detection magical skills just won't get all that much information.
Also, I wouldn't let PCs Divine about 'What is the best tactic?' - That's not a future event. Have them lay out a plan, and then divine about what would happen if they choose that plan. After that Delphine can get a vision hinting at that plan, which alters what the PCs already divined when something stops them from actually seeing that plan through. Also, note that every example question on the diving table in Street Magic can be answered by a simple 'yes' or 'no'. It also suggests that the GM should make the roll in some cases, and that the GM should make leeway for providing the players with hints and proabilities rather than hard facts. Not that it also works as follows - Threshold is 1 to 4 depending on detail of question, and THEN count the net hits (which needs 7 hits for a detailed answer to a detailed question. 1 net hit is cryptic info, Two net hits: mildly helpful. Three net hits: desired level of detail. You don't get more detail after 3 hits. The Triad boss also won't reveal that he already sent a team and lost it - that would be plain stupid and a sign of weakness that he wouldn't let the PCs see unless they mind control him. Remember that they are on his turf and he has the upper hand with social modifiers. Harlequin will be masking, and if the runners penetrate that with the back ground count - good for them. Otherwise, the run states that he performs magic that is eyebrow raising to a scholar. The fact that he can do this with the aspected background count should be a hint that there's more to him than meets the eye, and you can easily have carnival workers glaring angrily at him or have the PCs witness an event where the workers ask him to leave and he refuses. Make the PCs realize he isn't part of the carnival. Also remember - no manner of information gathering is perfect and all-encompassing. If you get ALL the information, you will also get alot of FALSE information. Then you have to sort through that (which takes time). Gathering info takes time, and the Triad boss wants them to visit the carnival the next day. Make it a challenge. |
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