 What's your preferred edition here?, Curious to see which is more popular. |
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 Apr 24 2007, 06:16 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 386 Joined: 2-January 04 From: California Protectorate Member No.: 5,949  |
Pretty straightforward poll: What edition do you like the most?
Right now, I'm waffling between third and fourth. Since I have yet to run a game in fourth, or even finish reading the book, I can't really decide which I like better yet. What are people's thoughts? |
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Apr 24 2007, 06:33 PM
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#2
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
You're kinda asking in the wrong forum. In a site dedicated to SR4, you're naturally going to get a skewed number of SR4 hits.
Representative statistcs lesson done, I prefer 3rd. It's got it's flaws, but it's truer to the essence of Shadowrun than 4th is. SR4 may as well be SR d20 for all it cares for the mechanics and storyline of Shadowrun. |
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Apr 24 2007, 06:37 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: 21-December 06 Member No.: 10,416 |
You might think about adding a hybrid option.
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Apr 24 2007, 06:43 PM
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#4
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Moved to 4th edt forum at Shev's requeast.
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Apr 24 2007, 06:47 PM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
I'm not sure. I like the organization of the SR4 rules a bit more, and many of the changes made rule-wise. I do think that it's a bit more skewed towards Awakened characters, and the new armor stacking rules kind of nerfs anyone playing a street samurai (and I have no idea why anyone would bother with cyberlimbs anymore).
3rd Edition had serious issues with power creep through the various books, however, and the rules for Riggers were so complicated that I have yet to meet anyone in person who actually understands them. In fact, every 3rd Ed GM I've met (again, in person) has basically outlawed Riggers as a PC archetype as a result. |
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Apr 24 2007, 06:49 PM
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#6
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I highly recommend SR3.
I also believe strongly that complaints about Riggers like JonathanC's are the result of the intimidating nature of the rules, rather than their actual complexity. ~J, Rigger player for several years now |
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Apr 24 2007, 06:53 PM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
I think they intimidate people because they're complex. Even ignoring the options opened up by Rigger 3, after owning the SR3 book for many years I *still* wouldn't be comfortable running vehicle combat in that system. There are too many things to remember, too many stats, and too many modifiers to them. Really, that was kind of the problem with most of the tech rules in SR3, though I do agree that the game, even just taking the core rules (ignoring the expansions for both editions) was much more balanced across character types. On the downside, the metatypes in SR3 seemed less balanced, and the karma benefits for humans ensured a fairly meta-free gaming group most times that I played. |
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Apr 24 2007, 06:55 PM
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#8
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Target Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 8-September 06 Member No.: 9,334 |
I think 4th Ed has better overall rules mechanic, however 3rd had better feel.
There is too much blur between the boundaries e.g. want a smartlink / just get glasses instead, hackers can rig just as good etc. 4th Ed still needs LOTS of work on Matrix rules, Cyberlimbs, Rigging rules However all in all I am looking forward to the future .... |
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Apr 24 2007, 06:57 PM
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#9
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Most of the modifiers are the same or similar across the different tests. MIJI is the most complicated part, but it's rendered almost useless by the encryption rules (which isn't exactly a solution, but it means you almost never need to know about it). The next most onerous part is the maneuver score, which isn't complicated but does force you to know the exact speeds of all vehicles (which you can otherwise play fast and loose with, even though you really shouldn't)—it's a number that always stays the same for a single vehicle, a number that will probably be the same for all combatants, the result of a simple open test, and a number easily derived from the Speed.
~J |
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Apr 24 2007, 07:03 PM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
You're basically trying to argue that while it is incredibly complicated, it's a simple kind of complexity. And hey, if that works for you...great. 3rd edition has the benefit of a ton of sourcebooks and tweaking over the years, yes. But I can say from personal experience that I could not get my friends to play SR3 after their first taste of it. They wouldn't do it. And I wasn't all that hot on running it myself, either. It was impossible to find someone willing to GM it. SR4 is a much easier sell to my gaming group. |
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Apr 24 2007, 07:29 PM
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#11
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
If you're getting an admission of complexity out of anything but my reference to the MIJI rules, I clearly failed to express my opinion on the topic well.
I'll put it this way: what, specifically, is complex about Rigging? ~J |
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Apr 24 2007, 07:30 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 546 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Manchester, England Member No.: 1,062 |
SR3 all the way for me. Not that I've tried SR4 to be honest, but from what I can gather it doesn't seem to have fixed what needed fixing, but has simplified things, presumably to make it more accessible. I really don't like the concept of Riggers and Deckers being one and the same, nor Shamans and Mages.
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Apr 24 2007, 07:37 PM
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#13
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
You must have hated the Matrix SB then. |
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Apr 24 2007, 07:37 PM
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#14
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
SR5 is really my favorite.
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Apr 24 2007, 07:42 PM
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#15
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Just so you're aware, this being in the SR4 forum, the end result will be SR4. Similarly, if you asked "D&D or Shadowrun" on a Shadowrun forum, the vast majority of people would vote for Shadowrun. So yes, expect this to be a very flawed survey.
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Apr 24 2007, 07:43 PM
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#16
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Maybe you have a different Matrix sourcebook? Mine says that Riggers get penalties for trying to deck with the same datajack they rig with for no good reason whatsoever, and provides a way to make a really weak, expensive attempt at using drones via a cyberdeck. ~J |
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Apr 24 2007, 07:58 PM
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#17
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
You mean, like a program and a piece of hardware every real rigger needed to have anyway, then using a cheap wireless link - and completly emulating an expensive RCD? Oh, and BTW - it must indeed be different, since mine says that you just need the VCR-equivalent of a reflex trigger to completly negate those penalties - no new datajack needed. |
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Apr 24 2007, 08:08 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: 21-December 06 Member No.: 10,416 |
The SR3 rules weren't that bad. I do like the cleaner damage, drain and spell force rules for SR4 though. My main complaint with SR4 is that they went too far in simplifying and abstracting the game. It does lend an unfinished feel to the game that previous incarnations didn't have.
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Apr 24 2007, 08:09 PM
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#19
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Yes, a reflex trigger is the other way around it, at a cost of an additional .2 Essence and ¥13,000. Again, for no good reason.
Meanwhile, over in droneland, we have Remote Control which can be used in conjunction with a RPEM to be able to control a drone in captain's chair only, and without access to any kind of pool. It's the same kind of "rigging" you get with a datajack and a RCD. Note that unless I've missed rules for subscribing multiple drones via a wireless link, you still need a remote-control deck hooked up to your cyberdeck to control more than one drone at a time (well, that or be connected to a CCSS network, but I don't think I need to consider that as a normal situation). Edit: also, the RPEM absolutely is not something every real Rigger needs—its entire purpose is to do something that encryption makes almost impossible. ~J |
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Apr 24 2007, 08:10 PM
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#20
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Without having to pay for a RCD, yeah. And no, contrary to the RCD, the deck had no restriction on numbers of drones at all.
BTW - a reflex trigger was the only way arround those penalties. |
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Apr 24 2007, 08:11 PM
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#21
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
Played SR2 and SR3 for years, vastly prefer SR4. Core mechanical elements of the earlier SR versions bugged me (mostly the incredible shift in probability that occurred when your TN bounced around in the 2-6 range, and the sudden flatness that was the curve afterwards). SR4 is simplified without being neutered to stupidity the way some other major game systems have gone with their latest editions, and it's a lot easier to get new players into.
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Apr 24 2007, 08:15 PM
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#22
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
And being restricted to captain's-chair mode! That's not rigging at all! ~J |
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Apr 24 2007, 08:18 PM
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#23
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Who cares? That's all you would have gotten out of your expensive RCD without an additional VCR anyway. Of course, commanding drones via the onboard computer was much more efficient, since it could be done with a tortoise - like, your cell phone. |
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Apr 24 2007, 08:21 PM
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#24
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
A Rigger is, in SR3 at least, someone with a Vehicle Control Rig. If we're not even going to talk about the same thing, we may as well not have this discussion.
Also, you couldn't control drones from a cellphone, unless I've missed cellphones that have MPCP ratings (and thus are able to run Remote Control) somewhere. SR3 may have divided Riggers and Deckers too much, but it absolutely did not merge them. ~J |
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Apr 24 2007, 08:23 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 546 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Manchester, England Member No.: 1,062 |
How exactly does that work? Last I checked, your Rigger was your scout, fire support and getaway driver, where the hell does that come into a Decker's job description? So what if a decker can use a many thousands of nuyen deck to control a drone? That's not Rigging. |
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