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> Miss America versus sex predators, Entrapment schemes good for modern RP?
Wounded Ronin
post Apr 25 2007, 02:55 AM
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According to http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18299072/ Miss America has been posing as a 14 year old online in order to entrap pedophiles. She would lure the pedophiles to a house and then the cops would get them. It's funny because she says
QUOTE

“That part was very scary, but the police were all over the place,” Nelson said. “I was nervous, of course, but it was a very controlled environment, very safe.”


Whereas in fact probably most people coming to visit her probably weren't physically dangerous so much as generally sleazy.

The thing is that this setup sounds like it would work really well for a role playing game. It's kind of funny, the main character is engaging, and I think that it could work for the gaming table if, say, the player characters were the cops who had to capture the perps without hurting them and at the same time assure the safety of Miss America. For modern-day role playing where you can do this internet based setup it could be an entertaining and pretty easy situation to ease players into a new system, or something like that.

The flip side is that I keep thinking of how one guy who used to play Shadowrun with me would want to play the role of Miss America and furthermore make her magical or something. Noooooooo!
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hyzmarca
post Apr 25 2007, 03:16 AM
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In a world where virtual sex is just as good as (sometimes better than) the real thing without all of the hassle or STDs, I'd think that there would be far more work involved than just waiting for the fellow to come to the house.
They'd probably have to trace the signal and get to his jackpoint while they are still having cybersex.
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mfb
post Apr 25 2007, 03:35 AM
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hm. is cybering with the underaged illegal?
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Wounded Ronin
post Apr 25 2007, 03:38 AM
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QUOTE (mfb)
hm. is cybering with the underaged illegal?

That's a good question, isn't it? Could that be considered contributing to the deliquincy of a minor? Endangering the welfare of a minor?
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hyzmarca
post Apr 25 2007, 03:45 AM
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QUOTE (mfb)
hm. is cybering with the underaged illegal?

Assuming that you don't use obscure polite-sounding euphemisms from the 1940s, it counts as transmission of obscene materials to minors and is a Federal crime in addition to being a crime in most States and many foreign countries. In addition, there may be other charges such as contributing to delinquency or child endangerment, depending on jurisdiction.

In the Sixth World, however, there is no real difference between cybersex and the real thing, aside from the obvious. Having sex with a person's avatar is the same as having sex with the person, minus STD risks and the individual's physical limitations.
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mfb
post Apr 25 2007, 03:52 AM
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well, no, there's a huge difference. the only parallels they have are the sensations--everything else is completely different.
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Demon_Bob
post Apr 25 2007, 03:55 AM
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Would they have to be a minor in the country of the perp or the "minor"?
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mfb
post Apr 25 2007, 03:56 AM
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not just country, state too. no idea.
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hyzmarca
post Apr 25 2007, 04:28 AM
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QUOTE (mfb @ Apr 24 2007, 10:52 PM)
well, no, there's a huge difference. the only parallels they have are the sensations--everything else is completely different.

And what else is there, really? Sensations are pretty much the entire point of sex, along with whatever emotions that it might elicit.
STDs and pregnancy are real concerns, of course, but the risks can largely be negated by condoms. The entire modern rationale for statutory rape laws rests on the possibility of emotional damage from sex and VR would elicit the same emotions that physical sex would in the same circumstances.

If it is interstate, then that is Federal. In most cases, both jurisdictions will have a claim and the perp will get screwed over by the most restrictive one.
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mfb
post Apr 25 2007, 04:37 AM
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there's the mutual knowledge that cybersex isn't real. that knowledge is necessarily going to change how it affects the minor. cybering, whether it's with text or with simsense, is nothing more than jerking off at the same time. simsense sex with a minor is no different than sending a pr0n simsense recording to a minor. you'd be guilty of corrupting a minor and related charges, sure, but not statutory rape.
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Kagetenshi
post Apr 25 2007, 04:52 AM
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hyzmarca: since orgasm temporarily shuts down the emotional centers of the brain, I don't think there's much to be said for the emotions being the point.

I think a good run for the people who run "morally upstanding" campaigns would be to kill off Miss America, and possibly her police escort.

~J
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hyzmarca
post Apr 25 2007, 05:52 AM
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QUOTE (mfb @ Apr 24 2007, 11:37 PM)
there's the mutual knowledge that cybersex isn't real. that knowledge is necessarily going to change how it affects the minor. cybering, whether it's with text or with simsense, is nothing more than jerking off at the same time. simsense sex with a minor is no different than sending a pr0n simsense recording to a minor. you'd be guilty of corrupting a minor and related charges, sure, but not statutory rape.

Speak for yourself. I've had cyber-relationships that were every bit as intense as physical relationships are and it is quite possible to share an emotionally charged moment through the magic of one-handed typing and the human imagination. Some married couples who live apart maintain (relatively) healthy relationships through cyber- and phone-sex. I can understand how some vulnerable individuals could be screwed up by a bad cyber-sexual relationship today. VR just makes things even more real. When those bonding chemicals start flowing in your brain, it doesn't matter if they're tying you to a physical person or a block of text or a VR avatar, the end result is the same .


QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
hyzmarca: since orgasm temporarily shuts down the emotional centers of the brain, I don't think there's much to be said for the emotions being the point.
Orgasms are overrated. I don't believe that there is any adult who could reasonably disagree with me on this. The average individual discovers masturbation around 11 or 12. After a decade of it, orgasms are really rather boring.
What comes before the orgasm is the important part, the build up and, ideally, the unique connection to another human being. If it isn't crappy porn movie sex, if there is a connection there, then it is special even if that connection only lasts for a moment.
But the real payoff comes after. Post-coital cuddling. The sheer joy and contentment that post-coital cuddling can produce is abso-fucking-lutly amazing. If you did it right, if you have time to cuddle and if you actually care about the person attached to your crotch, then the cuddling is better than a billion orgasms. I dare anyone to claim otherwise.

Out brains are designed to forge emotional bonds as a result of sex. This is a good thing, really. It is what transforms a pair of horny and irresponsible cave-teenagers into a loving nuclear family. It is why humanity rules the planet, along with the opposable thumb. But, that natural bonding response can work to hurt us if there are different expectations in the relationship. And if a naive kid who thinks that he or she has found true love gets thrown away like a used toy, that just hurts.
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mfb
post Apr 25 2007, 06:44 AM
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those are all very shaky claims, hyz, because they're all based on your experience. you might be able to bond via cybersex the same way you'd bond with traditional sex, but that doesn't mean it works for everyone. there are plenty of people--maybe even the majority--for whom the online world is a place to act like someone else completely. that change in the way they choose to interact with others is going to have a pronounced effect on how they bond with others online, and how their experiences online are going to affect them.

and there are millions of adults who'd disagree with you on the orgasm vs cuddling issue, simply because they don't value relationships like you do. relationships are hard work and full of risk; getting laid is relatively easy, with relatively easily-managed risks. settling for the easy prize instead of risking failure in pursuit of the greater prize is a perfectly legitimate choice for an adult.
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nezumi
post Apr 25 2007, 12:17 PM
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To sort of bring this back to SR... If the UCAS laws are at all similar to US laws, anything sexual with or of a minor would be illegal. However, relationships with a person dressed as and acting like a minor would be legal (and probably quite common), and matrix sex with cartoon minors would be legal.

In the CAS, I rather suspect both would be illegal, but poorly enforced.
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pbangarth
post Apr 25 2007, 12:17 PM
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As I read it, hyzmarca was actually refuting the categorical statement that there is no emotional connection through cyberspace. His one counterexample is enough to do that.

As far as the post-coitus cuddling thing goes, make that a minority of two of us, then. Also, hyzmarca alludes to a partial chemical basis to this sensation, which would suggest it is more than an individual's taste.
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ShadowDragon8685
post Apr 25 2007, 12:38 PM
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I would also note that this is the dystopian world of Shadowrun we're talking about. As long as you don't try to (openly) marry a 13-year-old, I imagine that they don't actually give two goddamns what you do with minors, unless you do it with a rich minor whose parents will get angry.

And of course, there's SINless - less than people, who cares about their emotional instability? Nobody.
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mfb
post Apr 25 2007, 01:20 PM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Apr 25 2007, 07:17 AM)
As I read it, hyzmarca was actually refuting the categorical statement that there is no emotional connection through cyberspace.  His one counterexample is enough to do that.

not at all. the argument is whether there'd be a legal basis in SR for calling it statutory rape when you have cybersex with a minor. hyzmarca says yes, because some people can for the same types of bonds they'd make over physical sex; i say no, because most people don't. this is especially true in a dystopian setting like SR--technology doesn't make us more human, in cyberpunk, it makes us less.

QUOTE (pbangarth)
As far as the post-coitus cuddling thing goes, make that a minority of two of us, then.  Also, hyzmarca alludes to a partial chemical basis to this sensation, which would suggest it is more than an individual's taste.

i'm not disputing that many people enjoy cuddling more than orgasms. what i'm disputing is the idea that there are no adults who enjoy the orgasm more.
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pbangarth
post Apr 25 2007, 01:50 PM
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Well there you go. That's all cleared up then. :)
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Ravor
post Apr 25 2007, 02:34 PM
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I have to agree with ShadowDragon8685, in the cynical and depraved world of Shadowrun I'm having a hard time believing that sex with minors would be illegal at all.

Of course, if the minor's parents were rich enough I'm sure they could convince Lonestar to toss the offender into a cell with Bubba the Love Troll and throw away the key on some trumped up charges...
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nezumi
post Apr 25 2007, 03:05 PM
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I disagree, I think it will be illegal in the UCAS. Why? Who makes the laws? The rich people. Who do the laws protect? The rich people. If I was a rich person, I would feel the possibility of some SINless ork (because we know they start getting sexually aggressive at a deviantly young age) would try to put moves on my little girl. That should be illegal, and Lone Star needs the tools to put that ork in jail.

Now of course, if *I* want to pursue some twelve year old, I just do it on corp property where the law isn't so stringent (I can't imagine Renraku feeling especially negative towards such things) or I go get some SINless slitch who, after all, we can't prove was twelve in the first place even if we wanted to.

So in a dystopian setting, I have no question the law would be in the books. It would be enforced regularly, specifically against:
People dating the rich guy's daughter
Orks doing anything in public
People lured into honey traps for exciting shows on prime time TV
Some young fellow accused of kissing his girlfriend who is two years younger than him, and is tried primarily by the masses watching on above prime time TV

It would NOT be used against:
Anyone with the money to enjoy brothels with extraterritoriality
Anyone with the money to create a convincing story as to why this twelve year old is naked in his private estate
Anyone who preys solely on the SINless masses

Dystopia for me is a world where soccer moms rule and have their nice little garden estates, while leaving the rest of the world to the wolves.
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mfb
post Apr 25 2007, 03:31 PM
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definitely. and if Miss America is going after corporate pedophiles, she probably won't last long. some sort of tragic boating accident while she's skiing in the Rockies.
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knasser
post Apr 25 2007, 06:03 PM
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I'd like to say how much I admire the way hyz goes so smoothly from cybersex with minors to the superiority of cuddling over orgasms. This is clearly a person who thinks things through from first principles rather than social conditioning. :)

QUOTE (mfb)
there are plenty of people--maybe even the majority--for whom the online world is a place to act like someone else completely.


Surely how you act online cannot be a completely different person to who you are. Quite possibly for many people it's a chance to be more who they feel they are. The anonymity that pure text gives us can cut through many social restraints. Can you swear that we would have the same type of conversation in person if for example you were 37 and I were 14? Or vice versa. Or any combination of genders, builds, loudmouthed confidence or social inhibition? Who is to say that behaviour in RL is more valid than behaviour online.

Incidentally, back on the subject of Shadowrun, it doesn't have to be SIMsense sex as a substitute. 2070 tech seems capable of cloning bodies of any particular age. Please try not to think about this too much. I'd guess in 2070 that would not be criminal, but might have a severe social stigma. Abuse of real children would remain criminal, IMO but given the shift of view to sex being a normal, healthy activity, the age of consent might lower.
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SirBedevere
post Apr 25 2007, 06:07 PM
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QUOTE (nezumi)
Dystopia for me is a world where soccer moms rule and have their nice little garden estates, while leaving the rest of the world to the wolves.

I agree too.

Don't forget about the laws regarding matrix presence. How legal or otherwise anything is depends on where you are in the Matrix
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nezumi
post Apr 25 2007, 06:22 PM
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"Incidentally, back on the subject of Shadowrun, it doesn't have to be SIMsense sex as a substitute. 2070 tech seems capable of cloning bodies of any particular age."

SR clones are basically vegetables. I guess if you are content knocking your victim out then raping him or her, a clone would suffice (although I rather imagine you don't get as much of a thrill out of it), but otherwise I can't imagine that a clone would compare to simsense or a bunraku, surgically altered dwarf.
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mfb
post Apr 26 2007, 01:06 AM
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QUOTE (knasser)
Surely how you act online cannot be a completely different person to who you are. Quite possibly for many people it's a chance to be more who they feel they are. The anonymity that pure text gives us can cut through many social restraints. Can you swear that we would have the same type of conversation in person if for example you were 37 and I were 14? Or vice versa. Or any combination of genders, builds, loudmouthed confidence or social inhibition? Who is to say that behaviour in RL is more valid than behaviour online.

it doesn't have to be completely different, just different enough and often enough. and whether it's acting like something you're not or acting truer to yourself isn't really relevant--the point is, it's different from how you'd act in "real" life, and therefore won't have the same psychological effect. the best you could argue is that cybernetic sex crimes should be their own classification--statutory cyber-rape, cybersexual assault, and so on.
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