Disease in Shadowrun - Dumpshock Forums

Disease in Shadowrun, or what doesn't kill you.....

Meriss View Member Profile	Apr 25 2007, 05:55 PM Post #1
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,696 Joined: 17-February 07 From: Middle Sized City, Ontario, Canada Member No.: 11,025	Makes you really sick. Ok random, late night thought. (Why must my brain torment me so?) I know VITAS and H/MHVV are some big nasties in the RAW/BBB but are there any others that make you or your players go eeeeew. Off the top of my head I can think of a couple of nasties. 1. H/MHIV (Human Meta Human Immunodeficency {sp?}Virus) Like it can't mutate to cross species lines again. 2. Hemmoragic Fevers, (Ebola, Marburg, etc.) scary, scary stuff. (GM note: Read Richard Preston's The Hot Zone your players will never trust a monkey again) {Player note: Burn all copies of said book before your GM can read it} Really scary part: It's all true So discuss. (Method I hope you're happy)

ornot View Member Profile	Apr 25 2007, 06:16 PM Post #2
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638	I don't see pathogens being all that different from today. It is probable that treatment for HIV and variants will be far more prevalent, even if a vaccine hasn't been developed. Haemorrhagic fevers in the past tended not to spread far in a human population as the virus rapidly ran out of hosts. It is only when patients began to be taken to hospitals that epidemics of the disease became prevalent. IIRC Ebola is thought to be a zoonosis, although its normal host is unclear. The question that strikes me is how will awakening affect pathogens? For the most part it is not in a pathogen's interest to kill its host too quickly, so possibly awakened variants would have fewer symptoms, but rapidly spread to become endemic, rather than causing rapid and bloody death to all that contract it. Of course if you want to be a little silly, why not consider awakened tapeworms? Make them sapient and capable of using magic. A worse pest than Devil Rats! Certainly tougher to deal with.

Eryk the Red View Member Profile	Apr 25 2007, 06:24 PM Post #3
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301	I think a sentient awakened tapeworm with magical abilities who befriends his host and develops a symbiotic relationship with him would be FANTASTIC. Everyone would just see a guy standing there talking to his belly.

Glayvin34 View Member Profile	Apr 25 2007, 06:31 PM Post #4
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 06 From: San Francisco Member No.: 8,275	Method may be happy, but immunology was my emphasis in undergrad, so me too! I've read the Hot Zone, great book, well written, a real page-turner and the true part makes one nervous. For a more Sci-Fi approach to Hot Virus, I'd recommend The Andromeda Strain by Crichton. The big reason why we haven't all been killed by a particularly lethal virus is that a good virus does not kill its host quickly. If so, the virus couldn't spread because individuals would be obviously sick right away, then die within a few days. As a result they wouldn't get close to very many other individuals to engage the whatever vector the virus utilizes. The biggest viral dangers to our immune system are malevolent retrovirus. HIV is a great example. These virus infect without causing symptoms, allowing the host to interact with a great number of other individuals before they are ostracized, dead or even dibilitated. So, basically, AMAHR (ambient mana-activated Hemmoragic Retrovirus) would be a scary-ass thing. Folks would get infected and have no idea, spreading AMAHR where ever they go. Then, when they wander into a mana warp (or ebb, whatever you like), their tissues abruptly liquify. It would have a life cycle like HIV or any other retrovirus: Stage1 The virus enters the body and inserts itself into a single target somatic cell (T-cells in the case of HIV). Stage2 Over a period of months or years, the virus occasionally reproduces, lysing the original infected cell and spreading a few million virus particles throughout the bloodstream to infect more target cells. As this stage progresses, it becomes easier and easier to (indirectly) detect the presence of the virus as it interacts with the immune system in the bloodstream and antibodies specific for it are generated. Stage3 The virus DNA is in the genome of most of the cells that it targets, but is still benign. The virus could stay at this stage indefinitely, if never activated. Stage4 The virus is again activated like in Stage2, but in all cells that have been infected. With HIV, this results in the death of most T-cells, which cripples the immune system and leaves the body open to a variety of oppurtunistic infections, including all of the symptoms of AIDS. The big thing about retrovirus is that if you don't get tested you'll never know you are infected until it's too late.

ornot View Member Profile	Apr 25 2007, 07:17 PM Post #5
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638	However, how does your AMAHR actually spread? The contagiousness of haemorrhagic viruses stems from contact with infected blood, but while the host is not bleeding, he's not infecting anyone. HIV spreads relatively slowly (c/f influenza) since it is principally spread by unprotected sex or contact with blood (which means it frequently stays in particular communities that come into contact with each others blood or sexual fluids). Bacterial and viral pathogens are already damned good at what they do, so I'm not sure what difference awakening might make. My personal option is for them to be sentient, or have strange symptoms like forced astral perception or generating an astral aura that attracts spirits or something. We biologists need to think outside the box!

bibliophile20 View Member Profile	Apr 25 2007, 07:50 PM Post #6
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737	Hmmm... magical disease effects... Depletion of the aura. Depletion of magical abilities triggering of certain emotions (thinking augmented rabis here; rabis trigger rage and other effects, like the foaming mouth, in dogs in a manner which help it spread via bites; so an STD might make the subject lustful, or a blood-transmitted disease might send the victim into a fury) Temporary magical abilities in a mundane (he sneezes and casts a fireball; cool, but the drain is literally a killer) I'll think of more later, my bus is here.

Method View Member Profile	Apr 25 2007, 07:51 PM Post #7
Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114	Meriss- why must start these threads when I have so much studying to do!?!? :( I kind of like the direction that Glayvin34 (Simpson's refernce?) is taking. I think the two things that would really scare me in the SR universe are- 1.) astral / magically active pathogens and 2.) biological warfare agents As far as Glayvin43's retrovirus idea, I like it. It could easily be spread magical fomites (magically active characters, foci, barriers, etc) and magic heavy environments. Better wash those hands after a visit to the talismonger! Also as far as biological vector let me remind every one that devil rats are dual natured and everywhere. Think a viral magical version of the bubonic plague... And speaking of plauge, a disease that would scare me is a bacterial disease caused by an dual natured bacterium (see FAB for canon precidence) that causes an "astral wasting disease" that kills your aura. The disease progresion could be based on the characters essence attribute (cyber sams would be screwed) and could have a progressive weakening effect on magical abilities. Toss in the transmission patterns I talked about above and antibiotic resistance and you have a nasty bug. Sentient tape worm with control manipulation spells? Also scary. I won't go into biological weapon now, cuz I don't have time, but think about the Balkinization (sp?) of most world super powers (especially China) the extensive world wide networks of smugglers and black markets and kind of crazy research the corps can do without any sort of regulation and you got a nasty scenerio brewing. Also something to consider: healing spells and astral examination could have a major impact on how diseases are treated, especially in underdeveloped countries when medicine is basically synonomous with religious practive ("medicine man"). People probably do not die from easily treated diseases nearly as much (in the developed or undeveloped worlds). The other side of the coin is the effects of abstract poverty in urban SR settings. Malnutrition would have horible effects on the average sprawl dweeler's immune system. Sanitary conditions would suck (see the devil rat comment above) and access to health care would probably be a pipe-dream unless you live in a corp enclave or otherwise have some solid financial means. Just conversation starters for now... must study neuro.... :twirl:

Meriss View Member Profile	Apr 25 2007, 08:05 PM Post #8
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,696 Joined: 17-February 07 From: Middle Sized City, Ontario, Canada Member No.: 11,025	Heh sorry Method, I believe you asked for it. Glayvin34 you scare me ;0 Although I have read Andromena Strain. Also fairly scary, but for a real bowel clenching read, The Cobra Event also by Richard Preston. Rogue biotech scientest decides to cull humanity. (These are the guys who will kill us, not the nukes) Some more fun disease suggestions, Avian Flu, (One genetic marker away from the 1918 Spanish Flu pandemic virus) West Nile Virus, and the increasing amount of Noroviruses (they don't kill you, they just make you wish you were dead)

Glayvin34

Apr 25 2007, 08:09 PM

Post #9

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QUOTE (ornot)

However, how does your AMAHR actually spread?

Given that a retrovirus incubates for months or years, I was thinking the vector to be unimportant. Over the course of the incubation period, the average Shadowrunner would probably get their blood on a lot of places and people. Or it could be spread from secretions like saliva, semen or vaginal fluids.

QUOTE (ornot)

We biologists need to think outside the box!

Yeah, that AMAHR idea was just the first idea that popped into my head, basically a mundane virus that is activated or enhanced by mana flux, which is the most basic concept in the Sixth World. But if I put down all my ideas, I'd probably still be writing the post. I could write ALL DAY on this stuff.

Anyway, I just reread the FAB section in SM, and there are the 3 different strains, each producing a slightly different interaction with Astral Space.

FAB1 seems to have several important components that are dual-natured, just reading the descripton it seems to have dual-natured components in its cell wall. Upon interaction with an astral form, FAB1 dies and some unknown mechanism produces substances that flouresce under UV light.

FAB2 has similar properties but it doesn't die when interacting with an Astral form, but needs to be pushed aside. An easy explanation is that FAB1 and FAB2 use the same dual-natured component in their cell walls (Astral peptidoglycan?), but FAB2 is gram positive and FAB1 is gram negative, so the thicker cell wall prevents lysis. FAB2 glows under UV light at all times, so Astral Forms can be tracked by looking for the shadow.

FAB3 seems to ultilize a whole different method and has managed to use dual-natured proteins to gather energy from the Astral and feed it into the Citric Acid Cycle somewhere. I think it infects from the mundane, but feeds from the Astral.

What else could dual-natured microorganisms do?

There's the obvious reverse effect of FAB1 or FAB2, I'll call it Astrally Projecting Bacteria, APB. An individal infected with APB stands out on the Astral Plane as if they have the Negative Quality Astral Beacon. You could tag a mark with APB and track them much easier in the Astral.

Different strains of APB could also cause the Spirit Bane qualities, as different spirits don't want to interact with or even be near infected individuals.

Forced complete Astral Perception and/or forced dual-naturedness could also be an effect of APB.

Sentience could also happen with some sort of disease as an emergent property of the bacterial strain.

There could be an outbreak of Infection Induced Aggregation or IIA. The individual cells of the IIA strain of bacteria are similar to FAB3 in that they gather energy from the Astral, but they don't drain their host's Force or Magic. They gather their energy exclusively from high background count, and manipulate their hosts into taking them there(via an Influence-like power).

A typical infection causes an irresitable desire to travel to the nearest high background count area. But it typically doesn't end there. The IIA strain is coldly calculating, and often seeks Awakened hosts trained in geomancy to make a mana saturated places for the bacteria. It also will not allow the host to die, and will soften its hold on their mind if they begin to starve, or force them to ingest nutrients. There is evidence that all IIA bacteria are somehow in communication with each other, and will work together from opposite sides of a region to alter the background count without ever meeting physcially.

The disease gets its name from the groups of infected individuals that are often found sitting together with blank expressions on their faces in high background areas.

FrankTrollman View Member Profile	Apr 25 2007, 09:35 PM Post #10
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665	Yeah, the disease rules and disease lists are missing from the Basic Book due to an error. We'll be seeing them in Augmentation, hopefully sooner than later now. Space considerations mean that we won't see a whole lot of new Sixth World pathogens. However, between established big killers like TB and VITAS, and tried and true irritants like Botulism and Herpes, there's lots to love. Personally, I would love to see a larger database of available replicating pathogens. From magical prions that enchant the proteins in your nervous system to viruses whose RNA contents create sorcerous effects with the proteins they encode - the Shadowrun universe has a lot more vectors for disease than the world of 2007 has heretofor dreamed possible. ----Warning: Bio Nerd Speak Follows!---- Our world has essentially 11 types of disease causing pathogens: Prions The smallest form of replicating pathogens, a Prion contains no genetic information at all, it's literally just a protein. It's an enzyme whose functionality is to act as a Brain from Robotron and convert other proteins into copies of itself. Group I Viruses It's a small package that delivers a double stranded set of DNA into cells. That's the same kind of DNA as you have, so its integration into your cell is just like you having normal genetic information that happen to encode creating viruses to the point where your cell dies instead of somethiung useful. Group II Viruses It's also a small package of DNA, but the DNA is only single stranded, making it somewhat vulnerable, but it also is already opened up for transcription. Group III Viruses Like a Group I Virus, but it has an RNA payload instead of a DNA payload. That means it can pull apart and feed directly into the translation process, but as RNA it is less stable than DNA. Group IV Viruses A single strand of RNA that is therefore a lot like a Group III Virus after it has already pulled apart to be translated. Group V Viruses Like a Group IV Virus except that the RNA is negative sense and its compliment strand must be made before it can be translated into Proteins. Group VI Viruses An RNA virus that transcribes its RNA paylad backwards into DNA which then encodes itself as RNA again and again to replicate itself. Group VII Viruses A type of double stranded DNA virus that copies itself Bacteria Single celled organisms can spread toxins into your body or eat things you need. Fungus Mushrooms or Lichen which grow into your body can cause anything from Athlete's Foot to Death. Parasites Tiny worms, little insects, or hagfish, these are multicellular organisms that eat your body or siphon your nutrients. Whether microscopic like a Malaria plasmodium, painful like a scabies colony, or just gross like a tapeworm, these organisms can cause a number of ailments. But consider the application of Magic to that: the disease or the pathogen's replication or both could be magically assisted over and above whatever the pathogen was doing in the first place. So imagine you have something that is essentially just a toxic substance - a chemical that has a detrimental effect on your body when introduced in your blood stream. Stuff like that is a dime a dozen. But imagine for the moement that it has an enchantment that induces other chemicals nearby to form the same toxic substance and attain the same enchantment. Now what? It's not a prion, it's not even necessarily an organic compound. But it is a self replicating disease causing pathogen. The fact that Magic exists at all means that there are like 30 new more possible disease vectors than there used to be. And that's about three times as many vectors as there ever were. -Frank

knasser View Member Profile	Apr 25 2007, 09:44 PM Post #11
Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636	So for example a virus that spread via Sympathetic Magic. i.e. symbolic links. Oh... oh no. I don't think that thought was a good thought to let out.

Xenith View Member Profile	Apr 25 2007, 09:54 PM Post #12
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361	Virus/bacteria/parasite that latches onto Astrally active auras, that are linked to an other, pass that way, and lay eggs or whatnot. Say... someone binds a foci that was bonded to an infected individual. The foci is infected and then the bonder is now also infected... For some reason that makes me kinda happy as a GM... "Well you've successfully completed that bonding ritual." Hours later "You appear to have contracted an unusual strain of VITAS." "DEAR GOD!"

FrankTrollman

Apr 25 2007, 09:55 PM

Post #13

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QUOTE (knasser)

So for example a virus that spread via Sympathetic Magic. i.e. symbolic links.

Sure. While a bacterium couldn't reasonably "travel" by such a means, it is easy to imagine how viral DNA might appear in another organism by that method.

There's no teleportation in Shadowrun, but magic can transform things at a distance. So normal DNA could be transformed into a copy of infected viral DNA with a symbolic link.

So yes, you can get sick through ritual sorcery. Heck, just the fact that negative health spells exist for such spells as Cure Disease should indicate that is possible.

-Frank

knasser View Member Profile	Apr 25 2007, 09:59 PM Post #14
Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636	How about a mental virus that spreads through the use of Mind Probe? That one would make a lot of GMs very happy! :D

FrankTrollman

Apr 25 2007, 10:11 PM

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QUOTE (knasser)

How about a mental virus that spreads through the use of Mind Probe?

That one would make a lot of GMs very happy! :D

Well of course there is no literal connection between people who are mind probed and the people who are probed. But there is magic that takes effect on the purely informational level. You could, for example, have a spirit's formula which is simply the knowledge of a symbol or poem. At that point, everyone who mindprobed a subject would themselves be open for ridicule and attention by the spirit in question.

Not exactly a disease, but it certainly shares some traits.

-Frank

Glayvin34

Apr 25 2007, 10:17 PM

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QUOTE (knasser)

So for example a virus that spread via Sympathetic Magic. i.e. symbolic links.

That's a good one. Diseases that have no viral, bacterial or even somatic basis, but seem to exist entirely as a result of Astral Phenomena. Like how virus are sort of emergent side-products of a planet that has biological material densely packed all over its surface, an Astral Disease is composed of the eddies and tiny bits of Astral Space. Not necessarily living, but capable of reproduction and transmission through Astral Space.

The Astral Flu? It gives you stuffed nose and sinuses, nausea, a splitting headache and a danger of pneumonia for a few days if you've come into contact with an infected Astral Form. Add in Speed of Thought movement and there's an epidemic on your hands. Any GM could run with this one.

QUOTE (knasser)

How about a mental virus that spreads through the use of Mind Probe?

Yeah! A true meme virus! An idea that can't be transmitted via normal speech but only via telepathy. This idea "infects" your thought processes and forces to you act in certain irrational ways.

Anyone ever read Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson? A Matrix Virus could be another scary thing. In Snow Crash a computer "virus" was developed that could attack humans. In the book, if a human had "deep structures" or the ability to understand binary code, they were susceptible to a contagion spread by binary means. If someone with deep structures sees the contagion, which could be nothing more than a diode flashing the binary code, their brain automatically processes it, decodes it from binary (exactly as your brain is automatically processing these words) and stores the virus in the subconscious, infecting the individual.

A Matrix virus like this could potentially be canon, I don't know anything about Psychotropic IC, but it can't be far off.

odinson

Apr 26 2007, 02:10 AM

Post #17

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QUOTE (knasser)

How about a mental virus that spreads through the use of Mind Probe?

That one would make a lot of GMs very happy! :D

That reminds me of the culling song in The Lullaby by Chuck Palahniuk. It was a poem that when read out loud would kill whoever heard it. The problem was the main character didn't have to speak it and just thinking it would cause people to die. He also had a problem with keeping it out of his thoughts sorta like (insert latest crappy pop song here).

bibliophile20 View Member Profile	Apr 26 2007, 02:48 AM Post #18
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737	I'm remembering a certain Monty Python sketch about a really funny joke... :D

Meriss View Member Profile	Apr 26 2007, 03:03 AM Post #19
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,696 Joined: 17-February 07 From: Middle Sized City, Ontario, Canada Member No.: 11,025	Don't start that again. :cyber:

maeel View Member Profile	Apr 26 2007, 03:31 AM Post #20
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 21-August 05 Member No.: 7,586	Personally, i believe that anything extra cellular mundane would be no threat in the time of nano-tech, at least in the civilized parts of the world. And the scary factor, well anything that makes a character unplayable (death, becoming NPC) is scary for players.

FrankTrollman

Apr 26 2007, 04:19 AM

Post #21

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QUOTE

Personally, i believe that anything extra cellular mundane would be no threat in the time of nano-tech, at least in the civilized parts of the world.

Why not? Nanotech is amazing, but it's also dumb. Any pathogen which has the same or similar binding sites to parts of your body would be extremely difficult to remove with a nano-machine.

CJD is a bent version of a normal protein that you actually do need to live. If you just send in nanobots to cut up anything with that chemical makeup you actually cause spongiform encephalopathy.

-Frank

maeel View Member Profile	Apr 26 2007, 06:22 AM Post #22
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 21-August 05 Member No.: 7,586	extra cellular !!!! is what i said! CJD is caused by prions as you know, which, if i am not mistaken, are intracellular. Also in SR3 there was nanotech that would speed up a patients healing, without the necessity of being adjusted to the patient, which IMHO implies it is quite sophisticated in the 2060s...

ornot View Member Profile	Apr 26 2007, 10:01 AM Post #23
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638	CJD is hardly a widespread problem... I don't see it becoming more of a problem in the future, unless cannibalism or brain eating catches on.

Method

Apr 26 2007, 02:43 PM

Post #24

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QUOTE (ornot)

CJD is hardly a widespread problem... I don't see it becoming more of a problem in the future, unless cannibalism or brain eating catches on.

I agree that nvCJD (technically we are talking about "new variant" CJD AKA "mad cow" disease in the press... the original is a very rare hereditary disease characterized by late onset of symptoms) would probably remain very rare with one exception-

Ghouls. Cannibalism will indeed catch on... I can see three possibilities:

1.) Ghouls have some sort of physiological resistance to nvCJD.
2.) nvCJD is an endemic problem localized to ghoul populations.
3.) Ghouls represent an endemic reservoir for the disease, which may or may not spread to other metahumans.

On that last point: prions tend to contaminate the environments where infected animals live. This is how deer and elk get chronic wasting disease. Not well-known predators, it is believed that deer and elk shed prion in their urine and that other herd members or other herds come along and feed on contaminated vegetation.

Ghouls probably don't keep the most sanitary conditions in their abandoned tenements, right?

knasser

Apr 26 2007, 06:01 PM

Post #25

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QUOTE (ornot)

CJD is hardly a widespread problem... I don't see it becoming more of a problem in the future, unless cannibalism or brain eating catches on.

How do you know. It could have an incubation period of decades. There could be a massive surge in it over the next ten years following the mad cow disease epidemics.

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