 A few Vampire questions, "Here we go again catfish" |
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 Apr 28 2007, 03:43 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832  |
So, I know there have been about 50 billion vampire posts so far, but I didn't pay attention cause I didn't think I'd need to know. Well, I was dumb for not reading them, and now I'm making a more stupid move by saying that I'm considering giving a PC the choice to become a vampire in the game I'm running. However, before I go about that, I've got a few questions.
Vampires have regeneration, does that mean that they spit out cyberware like ghouls do? Or are they cyber-compatible? Do the Stat bonuses = listed stats - 3? Sorry for the 50 billion and 1th post about vampires, but I've gotta know now. |
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Apr 28 2007, 03:59 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
Vampires, as I understand them, have only two stat enhancements. An additional IP and I think either +1 or +2 Initiative... they might receive a +1 Reaction... and the Regeneration just makes me cringe even as a GM... and yet it makes me so happy too... :grinbig:
But yes, they spit out cyberware in the same manner as ghouls. Just so you know... Their essence drain gives them the ability to boost their physical stats or MAGIC after they feed for a short time... but long enough. The saving grace there is that it takes 10 minutes minimum to feed and they must be undisturbed for the duration. Vampires likely rival Dragons and Immortal Elves(different from normal elves mind you) in psychological manipulation and perhaps sheer power... maybe. Let it be noted that vampires are usually single-minded in their bloodlust otherwise... except for a few very unique individuals. |
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Apr 28 2007, 05:34 PM
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#3
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Ghouls don't spit out cyberware. Vampires spit out cyberware unless the incisions are made with wood or sunlight. Cyberware already present in the vampire's human body when he is created isn't spit out.
Probably and sort of. In SR4 the average person has stats of 2 or 3 instead of 3s across the board like they had in SR3, so there's ample reason for stat bonuses to be larger. However, most of the magic critters appear to be "mildly exceptional" and be designed from the standpoint of 3s across the board. That being said, this is SR4 and there aren't "ability bonuses" any more. Now adays, there is a base value and a maximum value. The starting value is therefore 2 less than the reported value on p. 294 and the cap is three more than that. So the Vampire is 1/6 on most starts, but 3/8 on Agility, Reaction and Charisma, and 2/7 for Intuition and Willpower. --- Now Vampires have a lot of problems as PCs. The Regeneration and Magic boosts are frequently cited - and they are a really big deal. But the big killer for me is Mist Form. It's just really hard to have adventures where the Vampire can't just win all over everything with his magic power to walk through any wall thatisn't air tight. -Frank |
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Apr 28 2007, 05:43 PM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
Since a pc vampire rule isn't available, and your basically going to have to make up your own rules for the character, you might make the character have to buy his new ability's with karma. Beyond the normal ones.
This could simulate learning kind of. And maybe you could throw in a wise old vampire that has him build fences to learn his abilities :) |
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Apr 28 2007, 06:11 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
Frank:
Thanks for all the excellent advice! RE spitting out cyber: Alrighty no cyber loss, thats good to hear since the character in question is a rigger. RE Stats: Hm, the difficulty with what you said is that most races assume that you start that way. Since vampirism is something you get afterwards (you aren't born a vampire), then either the mins and maxs change, and the characters stats stay the same, or the character gets boosts to their stats by the amount of change since they spent points to increase their stat from the minimum in the first place. Yeah, vampires do have a lot of problems as PC's, I just don't know how else to help this person out. There are some political things going on in the game I'm running and a player isn't having a good time. So I'm trying to think of a way to help them out with out having them change their character (changing the character out for a different one is the crux of the issue). And the vampire thing fits fairly well into the story thus far. Squinky: Needing to learn powers is a good idea, especially for mist form and stat boosting. Unfortunately the old vampire part may not work out so well, since the vampire is currently a hidden enemy. (Jet Black from OtR) |
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Apr 28 2007, 06:16 PM
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#6
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Actually, you are born as a vampire. Technically to create a vampire you kill a human and then literally create a vampire. It's similar to how you might kill a human and conjure an Insect Spirit. The new creature may have some or all of the memories of the previous human - but it is still a new creature. -Frank |
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Apr 28 2007, 06:36 PM
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#7
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Well, if you want to get technical the text of SR4 (and Critters for that matter) describes it as a state of "near death" rather than actual death. You are actually transforming one type of creature into another.
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Apr 28 2007, 06:46 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 314 Joined: 25-February 06 Member No.: 8,307 |
The "adding abilities" idea is good...
What if you treated them like adept abilities? Then they could gain more as they "grow" and even risk losing access to some abilities as their essence wanes and their magic is reduced... I think I'm going to explore that in my campaign! |
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Apr 28 2007, 07:32 PM
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#9
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
It is also described as being at a state of near death. However:
So yeah, the creature sits there in a state of near death, but the original character died and a newly created critter is going n a rampage.
Adept Abilities are exactly whathtey shouldn't be like, because Vampire Adepts are really broken. They can kill a human and spend the extra Essence they get for six extra Magic points for 12 hours. That allows them to have a full compliment of newly chosen Adept powers every day by draining a victim each time. -Frank |
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Apr 28 2007, 07:38 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
I had always interpeted it in the more SR3 version (it sounded very similar)... aside from bone lacing and such... but I can understand that version. Very New World of Darkness-y. XD |
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Apr 28 2007, 09:08 PM
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#11
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
Where'd you hear that? |
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Apr 28 2007, 09:09 PM
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#12
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
Taking someone to zero Essence is the definition of them dying. You have to be dead to become a vampire; it's just how it works. |
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Apr 28 2007, 09:09 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
Heh, the old man thing I mentioned was just a crappy joke.
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Apr 28 2007, 09:33 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 13-April 07 From: Houston, Texas Member No.: 11,448 |
I wouldnt say theyre actually dead, even after being drained to zero essence, else vampires and ghouls would come about through the transformation of corpses, not living beings. It is, after all, a virus that is transmitted through infection. |
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Apr 28 2007, 09:40 PM
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#15
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I play it that way also. The infection power says enters a state of near death and I treat it as a pretty clear modifier of the more general essence drain rules. That's the way things are normally done: say something is so, and then state exceptions later / elsewhere. You can't say everything in every place or you're just endlessly repeating yourself. Shadowrun has a long tradition of showing "the truth" behind the myth. |
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Apr 28 2007, 09:55 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 13-April 07 From: Houston, Texas Member No.: 11,448 |
Yep, but if GMs still want reasons ot take HMHVV infected characters away from their players, there is nothing that says who they were isnt changed by the process, except with ghouls. We know that ghouls do lose something(mental statistics) during their transformation, and for some people that makes them pretty much animals(in SR3 those are the people who fell to 0 or less in their stats that received penalties). |
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Apr 28 2007, 10:48 PM
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#17
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Perhaps unfortunately, it is already canon that a vampirized dude with cyberware keeps the cyberware. There was a cybernetic vampire in an official FASA adventure as well as the whole novel thing. As to not spitting out cyberwares that are implanted under a knife made of wood or cut with a focused beam of sunlight, that follows naturally from the limitations of regeneration.
For that matter, if you bust out a magical incision, that isn't regenerated, but rather healed normally. And normal healing means normal cybernetic implantation.
Don't talk about "ghouls and vampires" because they are very very different in absolutely everything they do. Ghouls do not have the Infection power and do not spread through that vector. They do not drain Essence, and new ghouls do not ever spend time as an Esssence drained corpse. Vampires are created from corpses. Ghouls are transformed from living metahumans. Vampires drain Essence from living sapient people. Ghouls eat decaying metahuman flesh. Don't confuse them when talking about generalities of the infected, because the morality and identity issues surrounding the two critters aren't even remotely similar. -Frank |
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Apr 28 2007, 10:51 PM
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#18
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Whilst I'm sure that everyone here is willing to do our best to help make a vampire PC work, I think it really is a very difficult thing to do. If the problem is political will the vampire thing definitely sort things out? It could be a real frying pan to fire migration. Maybe if you told us a bit more about the situation, we could offer some different, non-boosting attributes to 12 suggestions. ;) -K. |
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Apr 28 2007, 11:02 PM
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#19
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I think that as close as a character comes to death during the vampire creation process is analoguous to how close someone comes to "death" when they experience a heart-attack or similar, before the doctors manage to revive that person. It's not death in any meaningful way. It's a little disingenuous to say that vampires are created from corpses. The vampire is not draining someone dry, wandering off, coming back later that evening to turn the mortal remains into its kin. SR4 clearly refers to a token amount of blood being taken to accompany the essence drain, so there's hardly any reason for the victim to die through physical causes, either. The vampire finishes the draining process, the victim hovers along at 0 essence in a state the book mentions - "near death" - before going back up to essence 1 with a huge appetitie. It's misleading to call that a corpse. Shedim are the animated corpses. Vampires clearly have continuity with their pre-infections selves. Shadowrun vampires are the victims of some magical disease, not living corpses. |
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Apr 28 2007, 11:29 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 13-April 07 From: Houston, Texas Member No.: 11,448 |
theyre transformed by different strains of the same magical virus: HMHVV |
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Apr 28 2007, 11:30 PM
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#21
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Right. Because the Infection power does that for him. Maybe we need to go back to the core statement: "If a character's Essence is drained to 0, the character dies." Maybe we should bold that: "If a character's Essence is drained to 0, the character dies." Maybe we should check some of the other statements in the book: "Under the basic Shadowrun rules, characters can never have an Essence of 0 or less. If they do, they die." Maybe we should size that up a bit: "Under the basic Shadowrun rules, characters can never have an Essence of 0 or less. If they do, they die." OK? You hit zero, you're dead. The only exceptions are specifically not in the basic book. That's a reference to cybermancy of course, and that's not in the basic book. Vampirism is in the basic book, so it is definitionaly not an exception. Infection, on the other hand, only takes effect if the victim has already been drained to 0 Essence. Which means that they are dead. First they die, then you roll an Infection check, and if the Infection succeeds a newly "created" critter rises up later.
So do Fleshform Insect spirits. What's your point? -Frank |
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Apr 28 2007, 11:45 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: 21-December 06 Member No.: 10,416 |
If I recall correctly, some of the older novels dealt with this issue. Ghouls could get cyber, but it made them crazy. Vampires didn't bother. I can see two lines of reasoning behind that.
1) The essence cost would reduce their overall power. A vampire with its essence drain power could get up to 12 essence. Since essence is added to certain attributes, like Strength, they could be much more powerful through essence drain than they could by having cyber. (Hmm, they took that out in SR4!? An STR 4 vampire is so scary.) 2) The first time they use mist form, there goes all the cyber straight to the floor. Now that I think about it, there was one novel that was about a coven of vampires who were working on a genetic treatment to make themselves immune to sunlight, and making many more vampires besides. I think during the climatic run on their base that some of the vampires seemed cybered but were crazy. Thought I knew right where it was, but wrong one. Older canon was that magic and tech didn't go together well. I still play it like that. |
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Apr 28 2007, 11:55 PM
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#23
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Tone it down please. I think you've made your point. |
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Apr 29 2007, 12:45 AM
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#24
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
Please to give exact sources. This is not me being snarky, this is me doing some ressearch. |
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Apr 29 2007, 01:35 AM
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#25
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Total Eclipse. The vampire's name is Nemesis. He was a magician with a little bit of cyberware before his transformation.
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