 A few Vampire questions, "Here we go again catfish" |
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 Apr 29 2007, 01:38 AM
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#26
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Tilting at Windmills  Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388  |
Spasiba. {goes to look through his SR collection, but he's reasonably certain he doesn't have that one...time to look for a copy, I suppose}
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Apr 29 2007, 01:48 AM
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#27
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
Nope, I lied. I do have it. I'm not particularly impressed, but then I seldom am with a lot of the older FASA adventures.
Anything official ever happen to poor old Nemesis, or was he yet another loose end? |
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Apr 29 2007, 01:57 AM
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#28
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Loose end, as I recall.
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Apr 29 2007, 02:13 AM
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#29
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
Splendid!!
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Apr 29 2007, 02:25 AM
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#30
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
...I've got a bad feeling about this.
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Apr 29 2007, 02:28 AM
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#31
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737 |
you're not the only one. still... hey, Patrick, when you're done converting the guy over to SR4 stats, could you PM them to me? |
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Apr 29 2007, 02:34 AM
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#32
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
Who said anything about converting him? I've got other things to be doing with HMHVV than converting a fluke.... <eg>
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Apr 29 2007, 02:38 AM
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#33
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737 |
uh-oh.
To: Any Street Sams in Patrick's game Re: Advice Start wearing neck armor. |
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Apr 29 2007, 02:44 AM
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#34
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
Not bad advice, in and of itself. Not necessarily in regards to this particular conversation, mind you, but not bad advice.
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Apr 29 2007, 02:44 AM
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#35
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Target Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: 4-January 07 Member No.: 10,539 |
I've seen a number of people say this, but don't vampire adepts have to deal with the same magic cap of 6+initiation grade that most other things have to deal with? I'm honestly wondering about this because I can't find anything that says they can exceed the normal cap. |
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Apr 29 2007, 02:47 AM
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#36
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
Not the way I read it. Go and read the Essence Drain power again; any creature with this power can use drained Essence to increase any of their abilities over the cap. At least that's how I'm reading it. I also don't believe that vampire adepts are any more broken than vampire mages, but that's a separate conversation altogether, and one I really haven't time for this evening. |
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Apr 29 2007, 02:59 AM
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#37
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Target Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: 4-January 07 Member No.: 10,539 |
The only cap that is mentioned in the Essence drain text is that of Essence itself. Specifically through essence drain a person can only increase their own essence to twice what they currently have. They can also only drain as much as they currently posses.
Specifically converting to other attributes gives +1 to the particular attribute per 2 points of drained essence and it lasts for 12 hours then you lose half the essence you drained. So say a Vampire with 6 essence and magic 3 drains someone of 6 essence, the way I read it, it seems they now have 6 essence/6 drained essence and still 3 magic. Someone busts in looking for the poor slob the vampire just drained, and the vampire boosts it's magic, it uses the 6 drained essence(not 12 because only 6 of the essence is "drained essence") to boost magic up to 6 for the next 12 hours. As far as I can see the text on essence drain doesn't specifically state anything about boosting an attribute over the cap, and also states that only the essence that was recently drained can be used for the boost. Unless I'm reading it wrong, which is possible. |
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Apr 29 2007, 03:37 AM
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#38
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
Technically, all Essence possessed by a vampire is drained Essence; that's how they live, after all. They don't possess Essence of their own.
In your example, the vampire could conceivably convert all of that 12 Essence into, for purposes of this example, Magic, for a +6 boost (and it would permanently burn up 6 of those Essence points when the effect wore off). It's not a good idea to do this, because it leaves said vampire in a world of hurt; while 0 Essence isn't quite the death sentence for a vampire that it is for a non-vampire, it's still a very bad place to be. It leaves them suddenly starving and thus prone to trying to sate that hunger (and thus making mistakes). That's how I read it, anyway. I'm not 100% behind the current wording of the Essence Drain power, by the way, and I'm working on an alternative to submit to Rob as possible errata once the whole changeover is complete and everyone's at work for IMR. |
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Apr 29 2007, 03:38 AM
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#39
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Where's the Montesi Formula when you need it?
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Apr 29 2007, 03:41 AM
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#40
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
In Greenwich Village, I believe.
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Apr 29 2007, 03:43 AM
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#41
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
I hear that's a Starbucks now.
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Apr 29 2007, 03:45 AM
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#42
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
Crap. That would explain a great deal, wouldn't it?
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Apr 29 2007, 03:45 AM
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#43
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Patrick Goodman rides again? |
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Apr 29 2007, 03:46 AM
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#44
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
I am, in fact, trying to get back in the saddle. It might be slightly early to say I'm riding again, let alone tilting at more windmills, but that's kind of hard for me to judge from this angle.
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Apr 29 2007, 04:13 AM
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#45
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Well what ever it is you're doing, gald to hear it. Just don't ride the windmills.
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Apr 29 2007, 04:32 AM
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#46
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
Crud. Maybe that's what I was doing wrong....
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Apr 29 2007, 09:13 AM
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#47
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Wow! I would hate to be your keyboard. Lets all take a deep breath (except for the vampires amongst us). Now, lets return to what I said earlier:
I actually can read, so your repeated, bolded, capitalised quotes from the book aren't necessary. What I said is that a little after the part you quoted, it goes on to say more about it under the infection power where there is a more specific case listed as an exception. That's the normal way that well-organised information works.
That is not a statement of fact. That is your opinion. Infection clearly states that the victim enters a state of "near death." To me that sounds like an exception. The tone of your post is that of someone laying down the law. I would like you to concede that my interpretation is a perfectly valid one. It also fits nicely with the cannon flavour of vampires in Shadowrun who are portrayed as victims of some magical disease.
No. An insect spirit is demonstrably a different entity to the host that it took over. It is also explicitly stated in Street Magic to be the case. A vampire is apparently the same person that was there before due to (a) the lack of any suggestion that it is otherwise in the SR4 book, (b) various bits of flavour that imply it, such as the retention of the original character's personality and ( c ) the fact that unlike shedim and insect spirits, there is no outside entity taking over the character - vampirism is explicitly the effects of the HMHVV infection. Sorry, but given Shadowrun's common practice of re-inventing myths to show the truth behind various legendary critters, there's no reason to bring our baggage from other systems that vampires are risen corpses. We need to look for evidence within Shadowrun that this is so, and no matter how many times you repeat the same single line from pg. 288 of the SR4 BBB, there's still a line elsewhere and a whole lot of flavour text that tells us otherwise. Sometimes you have to read the whole thing, not just the part that suits your needs. Down that dark path lies a career in law. ;) |
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Apr 29 2007, 09:49 AM
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#48
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
That is how well organized information that has an exception works. In this case however, it specifically notes that there is no exception in the book. It states this twice, both on page 68 and 288, and even italicizes the word never in order to highlight the lack of exceptions present in the book. It says it both under the rules for Essence in general and under the Essence Drain power that is being used, it is emphasized and stated redundantly. Your character is dead. Nothing in the basic book can prevent or reverse that, and the statement you are tryig to finagle into preventing that is in fact in the basic book. Infection is not an exception to the Essence Drain power, it is a consequence of the Essence Drain power. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I submit that you slow down and actually read the no exceptions clause which has now appeared in this thread five times: "Under the basic Shadowrun rules, characters can never have an Essence of 0 or less. If they do, they die." -Page 68, Emphasis as written on the page. See, the Infection Power is a basic Shadowrun Rule because it's in the basic book. So it's actually included in the statement that says that you can't have an Essence of 0, and if you do get an Essence of 0 you die.
I have reservations about the current Essence Drain power. As it currently stands, Vampires spend their time hopping between Essence 12 and Essence 6, because they can give themselves one bonus at a time, that bonus can be up to half their Essence, and they lose an amount of Essence equal to the bonus at the end. But there's little incentive to grant themselves a bonus other than the biggest they could possibly get, just as there's little incentive for a Vampire to spend much time messing around with intermediate levels of Essence Draining. I have difficulty imagining a situation where you would meet a Vampire with an Essence of 5 or 8. And I am honestly pissed off that Vampires get "A +6 Magic Boost". That's murder on a Shadowrunner team, but not actually particularly interesting. It's a numerical bonus that is directly replicable by just having arbitrarily more Initiate Grades. A Vampire is an NPC, he could just have more Initiate Grades. Part of the Shadowrun Vampire Flavor was the fact that Vampires were crazy strong. Hell, Nemesis was misprinted with a Strength of "only 12" and a Quickness of 30, but he's supposed to have a Strength of 30 under the rules he was written under. Seriously. Thirty. This back in the day when a Rhinocerous had a Strength of 25. He was supposed to be able to pick up and throw a tractor. I miss that. While we're on the subject: anyone else notice that as written Vampirism is a one-way ticket to burnout if you don't spend your time maxxing out the Essence? Essence Loss states that you suffer the normal rules for MAgic reduction when your Essence falls. The normal rules for Magic Loss are that you lose a point of Magic permanently every time you lose a point of Essence below 6 (SR4, p. 62). S as long as you bounce from 6 to 12 like a good little min/maxxer there's no problem. But if you drop to 5, your base Magic attribute drops by 1 forever. You don't get it back if your Essence goes back to 6. But if it drops to 5 again, you lose again. And so on until you don't have a Magic Attribute and can no longer drain Essence. A few months later, you'll hit 0 and of course die. --- Now don't get me wrong. Essence Drain could be way worse. You should have seen the keyboard diarrhea I got when Lars pushed through his special Force Adjusting Essence Drain for Blood Spirits (hint: the cap on Essence Drain is Force dependent: the Street Magic write-up is a one step infinite power loop). But I would like it to be tightened up a bit on multiple levels. The write-up is overly long, prone to abuse, and confusing as hell. It's not as bad as Bloodzilla, but I argued against including that too. -Frank |
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Apr 29 2007, 10:14 AM
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#49
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Page 62, actually. You don't seem to believe that I have read the line you keep quoting endlessly. I have. And I'm saying that elsewhere in the book it says there is a more specific use case and that specific exceptions trump general statements every time. I'm also pointing out at some length that my interpretation is well-supported by the flavour and apparent intent of the setting. Your beloved line (and the one under the essence drain power too), says that a character with 0 essence dies. But it doesn't say 0 essence = dead, in the same way that characters who have their throat slit die, but throat slit does not equal dead. They both kill you, but they can both be survivable if there is a remedy immediately on hand. And Infection offers a remedy by giving the victim a chance to make a roll to save themselves when they reach 0 essence, and which, if successful, will bring their essence back up to 1 so that they don't die. I can't make this any clearer to you. If you had wanted vampires not to be animated corpses then you would be endlessly quoting the other line at me. The one that says the character doesn't die. I'm not telling you how you have to interpret the rules, but my interpretation is a perfectly valid one supported by the RAW and, perhaps more importantly for purposes of deciding which way we should interpret it, it is quite substantially supported by all the flavour text. You have skipped over a lot of what I have posted. I do not think you are weighing up all the arguments and deciding which you think is the correct interpretation. I think you have a made up mind and are trying to support your preconceptions. I disagree with your adherance to one line without context and to the exclusion of counter-information. I disagree with your tone of "I AM THE LAW" also. |
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Apr 29 2007, 03:25 PM
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#50
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
What I want to know, is which side of the death line is this "near death" thingie?!
Aren't vampires "beyond death"? |
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