Wi-Fi Detection to easy?, Shadowrunners better go primitive Options

[Lorka]

I stumbled on this paragraph: Wi-Fi Detection its on page 256.

It say that security will more likely than not be scanning for hidden networks, since an unknow hidden network equals an intruder.

Now this seems reasonable, in fact having seen it, I cannot imagine matrix security not doing something like this.

Now scanning for hidden networks in generel is on page 225 under Detecting Wireless Networks: Electronic Warfare + Scan (15+, 1 Combat Turn).

Lets say you have an automated system with good rating concidering a starting or low Karma team that would be a dice pool of 8. Lets just do the convert to hits meaning 2 hits each combat turn. So after 8 combat turns the system have found and possibly triangulated the location of the intruders.

In other words do to this rules you either have to hack into the system and stop the scanning or you will fail unless you can do the run in 8 combat turns or less.

Now you can also choose to go primitive and not use any Wi-Fi at all and more and more points me into the direction that Shadowrunners should use no Wi-Fi in most cases.

Any comments, something I have misunderstood?

[Bigity]

I would imagine the scanning is not done every combat turn, but at periodic intervals, as you are just eating up resources in a massive way otherwise.

So maybe every 10 minutes, until a passive alert or IC notifies a security decker that something fishy is going on, and then it can be ramped up to a more frequent interval.

[Lorka]

Hmm what sounds reasonable, if it generates 2 hits every 10 mins then you have about and hour to an hour and half before your cover is blown should you be using commlinks in hidden mode.

I guess that is workable, as long as all shadowrunners know that is how it is, if you dont hack the system you have to do the sneaky work in one hour - seems ok to me.

[Moon-Hawk]

[2bit]

actually Lorka it just says scanning for local networks, not hidden networks.

[Bigity]

Actually, I would still have highly secure sites periodically scan for hidden nodes, especially after suspicious activity begins to occur.

[2bit]

But seriously, the problem is just that the test is way, way too easy. I would make generous use of the plus in "15+" for the threshold if I were you.

[Demon_Bob]

Always wondered why a infiltration team would be constantly broadcasting.

Even if the signal was encripted, and in short bursts it still is detectable.
For an mission going on in a more open, public area there reality of hidden comms being discovered in with all the other transmissions are nigh improbable.

In a secure office building with Wi-Fi blocking paint where only the strongest broadcasts get through, a radio scanner running constantly could detect transmissions. Combined with an analyze progam looking for unauthorized or encripted transmissions, and stealth becomes more difficult. They don't need to find unauthorized nodes just unauthorized broadcasts.

The more broadcasts in the area, the harder it is to find the ones that are not supposed to be there. A candle at night in the desert can be spotted fairly easily unless your in Los Vegas.

Always imagined a good team as knowing each others locations and movement, and acting as one, without the need of fancy electronics. Each team member is resposible for gathering info in thier fields of expertise, covering the areas the others can not so that thier team mates can concentrate on the areas that they need to. Create overlappin fields of fire, and if it is not your zone keep an eye on the flanks. Finding out that your surrounded after your buddy goes down is never good.

I got sidetracked. My vote is to maintain radio silence. Communicate with hand signals. Blend into the background as much as possible. Leave no evidence of your passing.

[2bit]

yeah, good points. For my taste, the flavor is - security networks don't scan for hidden nodes until an alert is triggered. And then, it takes as long as is dramatically appropriate... usually minutes, not seconds. because really, once their signals are triangulated, the hammer will fall hard.

[Thane36425]

Since most intruders would probably be roaming around at night, they could just reset the existing wireless system to watch for unauthorized networks. If the system would be up and running all during the day, letting it run at night at a lower level just listening for activity wouldn't be that much more expensive. It would be like many places leaving computers on all night and many of the lights.

My teams have also gone back to hand signals and such, using the comms only when they are detected already. If the building isn't completely shielded, a rigger or another lookout will broadcast updates, but the team will remain silent. Frustrating for the lookout, which is why they are usually a trusted NPC or secondary PC character, but it works.

If the teams split up, to take multiple objectives, it is assumed the other team is doing alright unless and alert goes off or they call to say they are pulling out or whatever. In those cases, both teams withdraw immediately.

Also, everyone either uses skinlinks or wires to connect their personal networks. No broadcasting, no way to hack in.

[Lorka]

Well ok so you all agree its better to go with out wireless, its just build into the game that Shadowrunners go in with hidden commlinks, its states this explicitly somewhere.
My point was that it would be stupid to do so.

But if you assume it makes a test every 10 mins or so, that would give you 1 hour before your networks are discovered this seems ok with me. And in that case there is no reason not to take advantage of full simsense by the team.

[Dread Polack]

Well, when a PC scans for hidden nodes, for the most part, he's finding nodes that have stayed within his signal range during the scan. Also, it's 15+, being up to the GM quite a bit. If a security hacker/decker decided at 2:00 am to begin scanning for hidden nodes, got 2 hits per combat turn, he'd start turning them up round 2:00:24, but some would pop up and drop off like if you were walking down the street with a laptop, scanning for wireless routers. Cars, pedestrians, drones, etc. would be turning up, and the person scanning would have to decide what's an intruder or not.

Of course, if the building is insulated, any hidden nodes could be considered an intruder.

The question is: with a 15+ threshold, when exactly is a particular node detected when a device is constantly and automatically scanning? You could say that the scanning device begins accumulating hits when the node enters its signal range. Even then, with a 15+ threshold to find [I]all[i] hidden nodes, how do you know when a [i]particular[i] PC's node is found?

In addition, in order to triangulate a signal, shouldn't you have to hack into the device and do a trace first? Maybe not if you have a number of devices under your control that are all detecting the device directly.

Dread Polack

[mfb]

realistically, scanning for hidden networks should be impossible. a hidden network is going to be one that changes its frequency several hundred times per second. that's just encryption, though, so in SR, it actually shouldn't be that hard to crack.

[Cheops]

You could also say that if you wanted to scan for hidden nodes using the EW skill instead of the Data Search skill (BBB 220) you must be within direct signal range of the target. In that case it'd need to have a decent signal making it vulnerable to external hacking (barring paint) or else to jamming (the action probably can't tell the difference between jamming and regular interference). So if it isn't an actual person sitting there constantly scanning for signals, just turn on an area jammer every 10 seconds or so to force the scan to redetect you.

[WhiskeyMac]

To stay in touch just use the Micro-Transceiver. For Rating 6 it's only 1200 :nuyen: and available at chargen. From canon it can be hacked but it has a device rating of 6 (all stats are 6: Response; Signal; Firewall; System) so you can load it up with Encrypt 6 and even some heavy-duty IC or Agents. Personally though, as GM, I would just have the Micro-Transceiver be able to be jammed, not hacked.

[hobgoblin]

Big question is, how noisy is the building after hours in data traffic terms? That seems to be the biggest key.

[Thane36425]

[hobgoblin]

Still, unless everything is turned off, And i do mean everything, there will still be things like cleaning bots and similar going on. And how do patroling guards communicate back if not by wifi? How much of the system is wired when you can slap some blocking paint on the outer walls and forget about it? Will there not be devices left on all over the building?

edit:

re-read the part about locating nodes. and it seem that that as long as the node is in hidden mode, it makes it much harder to detect. you may detect a burst of traffic, but as it will only talk to other nodes that it has on its subscription list, any attempt at making it say "yes, im here" will fail. this is unlike a active node that continually broadcast where it is, and the passive node that while not broadcasting, will reply if queried.

so while the spider may go "hmm, what was that" unless there is continual, high-density traffic (like say streaming video or audio) it will be hard to lock it down and the spider may disregard it as just a glitch or maybe a echo. radio signals have a habbit of bouncing of stuff, thats how radar works. and UWB, ultra wide band, can even bounce off flesh and water. and they are planning to use that both to look for items under peoples clothing, and to transmitt high amount of data short distances (next gen bluetooth, wireless USB and similar).

another open question is if one can select to dial back a devices signal rating. of one can, then yes, having short range coms may be workable. that is unless there is a wifi spot in every corridor or similar. maybe each camera is a wifi device.

but all in all, the matrix rules are so open that different groups can play this differently. it also leads to endless debates like this one ;)

[WhiskeyMac]

I just had an idea. If the guards communicate using Wi-Fi themselves, would it be possible to utilize their channel for your communication by just using a different encryption? Since the spider would expect the guards to communicate on that channel, what would be the chances he/she would be able to find the runners using that channel? Is that even possible?

[hobgoblin]

given that real life wifi works not on so much a single channel but a list of channels, jumping between them to get the best signal to noise and so on (all iirc), the way to tell guards from runners would be by their comlinks access id...

remember, wifi is bursts of data, not walkie talkie style "press to talk, release to listen" systems. they are like cabled data networks, only using radio rather then cables.

[KarmaInferno]

I'd hazard a guess that some 'runners would probably be among the last people in the world to have old all-hardwired equipment and use it regularly.

I know my merc character follows a policy of absolute minimum RF emissions during a run. All equipment running via datajack and optic cable, tightbeam laser comms when possible.

Certainly having stuff wired is archaic in the current game timeframe, but being that much less detectable can only be a positive when you don't want anyone to know you're there.


-karma

[Fix-it]

[kzt]

[hobgoblin]

no, what i assume is that wifi in SR behaves at least a bit like wifi in real life, and in real life wifi have a set number of channels it can use.

as for interference. again, its data based. package based. that means that the system starts and stops sending 100+ times pr second or so.

its the same reason (plus dividing a given area into smaller cells) that make modern mobile phone networks work.

[mfb]