Good ol Edges & Flaws, Favorites? Hated on? Indifferent ones? Options

[ElFenrir]

Seeing several threads in my time here on varied edges and flaws(and good/bad things about them....definately a lot of problems to be had), i was curious to know some thoughs on varied ones were. Which are some that you like and have fun with? Do you hate any of them? Think they all are unbalanced? Think some are?

I for one put them in varied categories. Liked, Disliked, Like but they have some possible big problems, and Indifferent.



As a GM or player, i tend to like the ones where i can create plot hooks(edges or flaws), or small ones that really don't upset anything. Disliked ones are the ones that A. are just overpowered for what they give(rare, luckily), B. Ones that are unbalanced in the opposite way...they simply cause so much trouble that im loathe to introduce them unless something very, very bad will happen. Im indifferent on some of them, the 'boring' ones that can't really be written about or abused either.

Hunted-6 is a big troublemaker. Not only for the one character, but for the team. If a character has hunted-6, its daaaamned hard to write it so the others dont end up tied up in the whole mess either, as if someone is that damned hated anyone they associate with is probably in trouble as well. And if no one else wanted any flaws, in a way, they are saddled with this one. Someone wanting this one i would probably try to talk into either dropping it down a few levels, or make SURE the rest of the party does not care. Even then, its iffy.

Things like allergies can go either way....severe allergy to ebola is just dumb, but severe allergy to air and skin would result in the characters early death. A few allergies are dependent on campaign(Sunlight in a Winter Arctic campaign vs. sunlight in a desert campaign.)

Amnesia can be a lot of fun. I typically only have problems here if its done from sheer laziness.

Any flaw that requires either A. Ignoring it or B. Killing the character and possibly harming the party in the process has problems as well. (Id have3 a talk with someone wanting to take the Cortex Bomb flaw, but then again, there are ways to possibly have it removed.)

Sensitive System and Bio-rejection get the ire of some GMs, but i mind these very little. Vat-grown replacements are very expensive.

Incompetences are all dependent on the campaign,IMO. Boating in a city campaign=abused. Boating in pirate campaign=just fine.

Edge-wise, i have less problems. Honestly, Aptitude, giving one bonus die, is not so damned overpowered as some people say, i don't see the issue with this one.

Ive seen some stacked Edges that can cause a few issues...but non combative ones. Mix Faces with Friends Abroad, Friends in High Places, and any other Contact ones and you have something there that might get out of hand.

Things like Perfect Time, Tech School Education, and a few others im indifferent on. They never really threw anything off one way or another.

Infirm is pretty harsh. Taken at low levels and it's something for nothing. At higher levels it becomes a bit more crippling.

Hung out to Dry is another one that i find a bit hard to work in. I dont know many teams who would want to keep a guy like this around.

all in all im pretty lean, but i tend to have more problems with ones that are TOO bad for the character, rather than the other way around.

Anyone else have peeves/likes?

[Kagetenshi]

Aptitude gives a bonus -1 TN, not a much weaker bonus die.

That said, while certain combinations of edges can be arguably exploitable (but only arguably—one of my players has a Face with so many social edges that she's got a -7 TN to most social tests, but it still hasn't broken things), in general I'd agree—flaws are more likely to be too crippling for their cost than edges are to be too good for their cost.

~J

[ElFenrir]

[Kagetenshi]

Well, it's not totally non-broken, since it means she gets a net -1 to convince someone Neutral to do something disastrous to them, but that's somewhat reasonable. She's still got a +5 TN to convince someone who is an open enemy to do something disastrous.

Of course, that's assuming she's using Etiquette. If she tries to Fast Talk him, more modifiers come into play and it gets more complex (but she gets the additional -2 for Charisma ? 7). It's powerful, but not flat-out broken.

~J

[Lindt]

Unlike say, a social adept. ;-)

[Kagetenshi]

Indeed, unlike a social adept. At -10 TN (all those edges plus whatever the ridiculous Social Adept power was), she'd be looking at a +2 TN to convince her worst enemy to do something absolutely disastrous to that enemy. Add on the fact that she could get another six dice on the cheap, and you've got a recipe for Flat Out Broken.

~J

[ElFenrir]

Which is why, as a GM, i tend to prefer when my players bring in Panther Cannons than fully loaded Social Adepts. At least you can stop the PAC. :grinbig:

[mfb]

i hate the flaws that are so detrimental as to make a character useless. like Liar, for instance. every time the character addresses someone, the GM rolls 1d6 to see if the character "gets caught lying". if he "gets caught" six times (and the chances go up every time he fails), the person will no longer ever deal with that character. if it's a contact, you lose it permanently. all this for the low, low price of 2 freakin' character points. what the hell, man?

[Shev]

Yeah, liar never really caught on with my group. I got pretty sick of seeing allergies, phobias, flashbacks, and dark secrets, though. Not so much because they were overpowered, but everyone and their mother had one.

One flaw I liked that I never saw quite enough was Gremlins.

[Kagetenshi]

Indeed. And then there's stuff like Bad Reputation, which gives you one build point per permanent +1 TN to every single Social skill! The same problem applies to Uncouth, but Uncouth is basically Bad Reputation with just the second level—I'm not sure why they bothered to include them both, they're identical except for BR's flexible cost. Then there's Scorched, which granted only effects the rather uncommon case of psychotropic ice conditioning, but what does it do? Does it give you a nasty modifier? No, for one build point you don't even get a roll.

And that's not considering the ones which vary in price based on what you are, in Shadowrun's classless world. Blind is only -2 for all magically active characters, including physads who don't get Astral Perception without paying a decent amount. Then there's Night Blindness, which is only -1 for Riggers and Deckers (but apparently the Awakened are just fine, despite still having access, in many cases, to astral perception). What happens if my character gets a deck or a VCR-1 post-chargen? Do I immediately have to pay ten karma?

Gah.

~J

[ElFenrir]

It's really interesting to see some comments here, generally i hear GMs discussing how their players are powergaming by taking flaws for more points. I think these GMs need to see just what they are taking. I dunno, perhaps their problem is they are taking them 'for points' instead of 'for characters'. I dunno, disadvantage for a cost seems fair to me, but maybe im one of those lax GMs. I only start raising eyebrows when 'grabbing a few points' becomes ''trying to outdo the rest of the group or break the system''.


Another interesting one is Sensitive System/Bio Rejection. Sensitive is -3 to non magical, -2 to magical(i guess assuming most mages dont take cyber...and if i remember correctly.). Bio rejection is -5 regular...and once again, -2 magical. Bio rejection is pretty hairy indeed if you engage in dangerous activity that could cost certain limbs and organs; bio rejection does mean that you forcibly, eject anything that is not of your cells, possibly killing you in the process. You're basically taking ''severe allergy to anything body related not of my DNA+1'' with this one, and im trying to figure out why it's so piddly for the magic using characters. This is a situation, unless someone is a serious thespian, a mage character would happily take the lesser of the two evils here.

And yeah, Bad Rep is a doozy. Dark Secret is a rather interesting one. The way it's described, you have a secret so terrible that if it's found out, were talking possibly gaining Hung Out to Dry(-4), and possibly Hunted, aformentioned Bad Rep, and other things...all at the awesome costs of 2 points. Im not sure why a moderate allergy to platinum gets more than this one. :P It's really cool for a plot hook, to work in, and can be an awesome background piece(in addition coupled with other flaws like Amnesia), but it IS a bit cheap for what it can do to you.

I guess i think they both are a good idea, but need a bit of retuning, which ive been wanting to do for some time now, but don't want to throw it off too much. I think a good starting place is to write down Edges/Flaws that i think are worth/cost too much/little and go from there.

[Shev]

Actually, it wasn't so much that my players were powergaming (though a couple DID go overboard with allergies). It's just that EVERYONE wanted a Dark Secret, and to have Flashbacks about said secret. It's fun to RP, but it gets old after the third or fourth time. :P

[Herald of Verjig...]

Dark Secret, Allergy, Flashbacks and Phobia are all best tied to the same triggering substance. Even better when the dark secret has to do with some event related to a soy allergy that still causes terrifying flashbacks.

[Kyoto Kid]

...had two characters with Flashbacks, Leela and Gracie, my MET2000 merc. Both had dealt with terrible experiences that affected them.

Leela witnessed her family killed by a Serbian Attack Helicopter that opened up on Jelacic Square a day after she performed a stunning recital at the age of only 8. Her trigger: seeing armed helicopters/rotodrones overhead or performing in front of an audience (this was a bit campaign specific)

Gracie was originally an orphan. She and her unit were present when a school full of children was destroyed by a Islamic terrorist holding them hostage with 10 kilos of C-12 strapped to him. Her trigger: seeing dead/dying children.

The flaw has to fit the backstory to work.

Another interesting and somewhat related flaw was from SOTA 2064: Incomplete Deprogramming. In a sense this is like a twisted version of Multiple personality disorder. My Fallen Angel character Night Angel had this one. Just a one too many Aliasofts & pre mission "conditionings".

"...OK, I'll open the door so you guys can slip in...no waitaminute, I'm supposed to be the sniper, I'll take my rifle & cover you from the bushes over there while you try to spring the lock...no waitaminiute I'm actually the demolitionist, I think I have some C-12 & a couple radio detonators, we'll just blow the door open... no waitaminute...

She was so much fun...

[Cain]

I've always had an issue with Day Job. I could never figure out if it was meant to be an Edge or a Flaw. I mean, it's technically a flaw that earns you money!

[mfb]

yeah, edges should be good and flaws should be bad. that flaw should have been Preoccupied--same time requirements, no pay.

[ElFenrir]

Day Job is a rather confusing one. On one hand, it earns you money, so it technically should be an Edge. On the other hand, you work for money like anyone else, so it's neither and edge or a flaw. On the third hand(heh), the job will probably end up tying you up for a run, you have to end up calling out for made up reasons, people could get suspicious, etc, so this could indeed be the flaw part.

I suppose it would be interesting to divide it up. for the Edge version, you have a rather non demanding job that pays, you can call out easily, lean boss, work from home if necessary(computers), etc, and it's unlikely to tie you up or put you in danger. the Flaw version could be more high profile, require more days there, deals with more people, perhaps deals with some higher-ups that might be unhappy if they found out what you did at nights, and the like.


I'd also vote that Dark Secret could be a ''leveled'' flaw, like many others. The bigger the secret, the more damage it could do if it got out, the more its worth. A -1 Dark Secret might be that you sold out a few old buddies years ago for drug use but you did it for money, and might result in some sort of distance between a mutual contact, some trust issues you have with some contacts til you build it back up, etc. The biggie(-6), you were probably one of the conspirators for Dunk's assassination as the third shooter or something. :P(and -6 might still not be enough for that one. :grinbig: )

[Kagetenshi]

[nezumi]

I don't like allergies or phobias, since they can be free points, nor incompetence. I hate 'looks good and knows it' because it's NOT an actual edge, but a lot of people take it anyway and I always have to tell them they're stupid. My favorite flaws would have to be Sasquatch-looking, Paranoia, Hallucinations, Time Traveler and Deceased.

[Kagetenshi]

Deceased was a good flaw, but it started being too risky once Shedim showed up. Now Obliterated is more worth it.

~J

[hyzmarca]

[Luddite]

I've always appreciated Amnesia in players. It's hard for me not to giggle like a maniac whenever a player considers it. "You want me to write up your background for you? Okay, your name is Ringer McPlotBitch..."

[nezumi]

I've increased the point value for all flaws that let me have fun with them (including amnesia), and decreased them for stupid things like phobia:Cthulhu. I'm actually pretty upset that SR4 dumped all the mental flaws because really, they're far more amusing.

[Grinder]

[Kyoto Kid]