 Hacker adept, What am I missing |
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 May 4 2007, 01:45 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 26 Joined: 26-July 02 Member No.: 3,039  |
I was taking my first crack at character generation in fourth edition.
I decided to create a hacker and dive head first into the new (to me) matrix rules. Looking at build points I decided to spend 5 on being an adept and 10 more to raise my magic rating to 2. I then spent my 2 magic points on getting bonuses to computer skill hacking and some other relevant hacker skill. 2 magic points gives me 8 effective skill levels. did I miss something? Getting my computer skill and hacking from 6 to 9 for only 15 build points seems to be an excessivly good deal. |
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May 4 2007, 01:50 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
You can't have more levels in a single adept power than your Magic rating. You'd need at least Magic 3 to raise any skill to 9 that way.
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May 4 2007, 02:03 PM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 26 Joined: 26-July 02 Member No.: 3,039 |
So I'd be looking at raising (at most) four skills by two each or sacrificing more points someplace else to get my magic up to three.
So the iconcept of a hacker-adept is, as a whole, workable, and an efficient use of build points? |
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May 4 2007, 02:19 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 11-July 06 Member No.: 8,863 |
might as well just go technomancer in that regard.
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May 4 2007, 02:36 PM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
It also risks invoking the rule in the quality description that says:
Your GM may differ in this regard, but I'd say that you were not building the character to explore the depths of your magic but rather abusing the cheapness of the quality to get something at a discount. |
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May 4 2007, 02:37 PM
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#6
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Target Group: Members Posts: 26 Joined: 26-July 02 Member No.: 3,039 |
Are technomancers better than hackers or is it a qualitative rather than quantitative difference like street sam vs. phys-ad. If they're just different, then I'd rather stick with hackers for flavor. If technomancers are flat out better at doing matrix stuff than hackers are, then what's cool about playing hackers?
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May 4 2007, 02:39 PM
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#7
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Target Group: Members Posts: 26 Joined: 26-July 02 Member No.: 3,039 |
Now that's a valid point. I missed that on the first read through. |
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May 4 2007, 02:55 PM
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#8
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
if your going adept, grab improved reflexes or something, if not its a waste of points imo...
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May 4 2007, 03:00 PM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
I think a decent infiltration adept/combo AR hacker concept could be fun to play, put some stealth and climbing with the electronics trickery, include locksmith and hardware stuff and that may be interesting.
Seems like as far as techno vs. hacker, it's about being a techno and having some very unique abilities in the Matrix, or being a Hacker and then using all those left over points to buy up some other area to sub specialty levels (Combat, Face, etc.) |
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May 4 2007, 03:00 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 28-July 05 Member No.: 7,526 |
Though technomancers can become more powerful than hackers in the matrix, especially in the long run, hackers are far more versatile - mostly owing to the fact that their abilities are not directly linked to their essence. |
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May 4 2007, 03:05 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 06 From: San Francisco Member No.: 8,275 |
In the Matrix, it's definitely qualitative. In RL, Hackers can dabble in street samminess easily, while a TM will have to rely on drones to protect his ass in the valley of darkness. Which isn't a bad situation, just pigeonholey. |
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May 4 2007, 03:17 PM
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#12
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
Here's a long answer for ya, because I like typing. A well built technomancer using his sprites to the best of his abilities can roll a hacker. But oh, do they ever pay for it. They're the uber-specialists of SR4. Becoming a skilled technomancer who is also remotely competent in other areas can be a real trial. Also, nothing, and I mean nothing really compares to the pain that is increasing complex forms after chargen. Complex forms are a karma devouring blackhole from which not even light escapes, unless you're using some kind of houserule system. Seriously, if it weren't for machines sprites, they'd have a hard time even dabbling in rigging, and hackers practically do double duty as drone riggers by default now. Meanwhile, it's pretty easy to make a competent combat hacker or Hacker/Drone Rigger right out of chargen, or, as you've already noticed, a Hacker Adept. Hell, with tailored pheromones I've made a few Face/Hackers. Another thing to keep in mind is that t's easy to squeeze wired reflexes 2 into a hacker. Since hackers can use their meat initiative when using AR now, that means a hacker can gain initiative passes both on the 'trix and in the meat with one stroke. I can tell you from experience that it can drastically increase your survivability, since if nothing else you don't have to use VR and risk biofeedback damage just to net extra initiative passes anymore. So if your Icon crashes, it crashes. Big deal. Meanwhile, TMs don't even get a seperate Matrix Condition modifier; if you crash their living persona, it's like you shut off a chunk of their brain for a while and they fall unconscious. And honestly, a hacker is usually good enough to get the job done... Unless, of course, they run into an opposing technomancer... :vegm: |
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May 4 2007, 07:17 PM
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#13
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
No. Quicker. Easier. More seductive. [Note: original quote edited to make the allusion work.] |
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May 4 2007, 07:30 PM
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#14
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
Nice Aaron.
We have a "Hacker adept" in our game who just kics a lot of butt and does it fast. In the AR anyways. Using nothing but magic (no cyber) he has quickly become a top notch hacker. Sadly in SR4 there is a ceiling for everything, so once you get to it, there is no better. He controls drones, hacks locks, intercepts feeds, he just really good at what he does. |
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May 4 2007, 08:01 PM
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#15
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Target Group: Members Posts: 26 Joined: 26-July 02 Member No.: 3,039 |
So for my first two levels of magic (at character gen) I was thinking of +2 computer skill, +2 Hacking, +2 Electronic warfare and then multitasking. For magic point three I was planning on putting another point into each of the three skill bonuses and taking an enhanced sense (to fit with the character background) After that I was intending on pouring magic points into initiative. How did your game's character do it? |
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May 4 2007, 08:43 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 588 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,316 |
I played an adept hacker in a low power game. 2 pts for inc ref. and a couple of levels in each of boost r and a helped keep him alive more than once. the rest into inc. hacking. He worked pretty well except that the GM really liked to screw with my characters and wouldn't let them do anything at all.
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May 4 2007, 09:42 PM
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#17
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Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 1-May 07 Member No.: 11,573 |
i have a fun adept character that did a couple runs. he was well rounded in that he spent most of his magic for combat abilities. imp reflexes (1), critical strike and stuff. he also had some cyber/bio mods. the character was difficult to play effectively though because of a moderate addiction to personafix btl's. he also had the knowledge skill of matrix games specialized to "foreverhack". i threw that in because a lot of the other runners (well, the players) were severly addicted to everquest.
anyway, adepts are awesome. my new character is a social adept with facial sculpt, melin control, voice control, kinesics, inc. con, and commanding voice. i have more fun playing him than any other character i have ever created. |
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May 5 2007, 02:24 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
Force 9+ ally AR hacker. Behold, the power of cheese. :P
More seriously, I don't see a problem with a hacker adept. However, it is a bit min-maxy, especially if you don't take *any* adept powers other than hacking. Bump it up to magic adept, take a few spells, or just increase Magic and pick up a few things other than hacking skills. Don't be so one-dimensional... that's the TM's job. :) |
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May 5 2007, 02:26 AM
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#19
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Target Group: Members Posts: 26 Joined: 26-July 02 Member No.: 3,039 |
I just looked over the rules. It appears to me that ,with the costs involved, a starting hacker could be a bit meaner in cyber-space than a starting technomancer (at 400 bp) In the long run technmancers can exceed Hackers because they can eventually get higher ratings, because registered sprites can perform the assist operation task that agents can't and because sprites can do the whole slew of sprite powers that are beond the ability of agents. On the other hand good programs are going to be much easier to get than complex forms. Do Hackers have anything comparable, in terms of throwing in a few extra dice at an action, to the assist operation task? |
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May 5 2007, 03:11 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 06 From: San Francisco Member No.: 8,275 |
That's the trade-off. In the matrix, most actions are skill + program. Hackers max out both at rating 6. Adepts can increase the skill dice to 9 or so, and TMs can increase the program (complex form) dice into the upper stratosphere. The trade-off is in specialization. Hackers can get cyberware and get high attributes and other enhancements to become better at non-matrix stuff. Adepts also, but slightly less so because Adept powers are less practical than cyberware. TMs are the aforementioned uberspecialists and have few options for improving their non-matrix abilities, but kick can more and more ass in the Matrix, more so than any other build. So the choice depends on the team you're planning on running with, and what kind of character you want. If you just want to be unbeatable in the matrix, TMs are the choice. Being a hacker/ Magician, hacker/ street sam or hacker/ Adept will get you into most corporate nodes for most shadowrunning purposes, but you might catch the occasional beating in the matrix. |
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May 5 2007, 04:11 AM
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#21
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
You're right that hackers have a much easier time of having the right program for any situation, but threading mitigates that a fair amount and the ability to jack up bread 'n' butter CFs like Exploit and stealth up past rating 7 makes up for an awful lot. Anyway, I feel that I must stress one thing over all else: Sprites don't just go beyond the abilities of an agent; they can potentially go beyond the abilities of a hacker. It's not easy, and certainly a Hacker adept can specialize enough to make it impractical to compile a sprite powerful enough to take him out mano-a-mano, but any way you slice it, sprites are still far, far more versatile and powerful than Agents. Note too that registering a Sprite isn't anywhere near the chore that binding a Spirit is for mages, and having a couple on hand in case of emergencies isn't too hard to manage and can REALLY ruin some poor corp hacker's day. Anyway, the overriding theme remains the same: Hackers for versatility, Technomancers for sheer Matrix ability. Once online, TMs really have nothing to fear other than other TMs and succumbing to sheer attrition from taking li'l bits of damage and fading here and there. |
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May 5 2007, 05:18 AM
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#22
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,251 Joined: 11-September 04 From: GA Member No.: 6,651 |
Thanks to the Diagnostics power of a Machine Sprite a TM can make a Hacker/Rigger/Sniper more effective.
TM's also can use Machine Sprites with their optional CF of a Autosoft to pilot drones almost as good as a tweaked starting hacker except without the skill costs. Sprites rock... and hackers lose out on them. |
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