IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Shutting down the WiFi, About at wits end, here.
Shev
post May 4 2007, 10:24 PM
Post #1


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 386
Joined: 2-January 04
From: California Protectorate
Member No.: 5,949



Ok, I've about had it with the whoooooole WiFi thing. First off, as everybody knows, wireless networks are far less secure than wired ones, despite all the precautions that one might take. Second, with the amount of information being sent wirelessly, who knows what effects it could have on people and animals? There have already been concerns about cell phone signals screwing with bee's navigations. No bees, no pollination, and things begin to get bad.

I rather liked the Matrix of the last decade, and am considering having a THIRD crash that leads to a regression back to (predominatly) wired tech.

What do you guys think? Is it just me? Would anyone be interested in working on house rules to make the Matrix wired again?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ghostfire
post May 4 2007, 10:30 PM
Post #2


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 48
Joined: 30-August 05
Member No.: 7,647



In my games, corporate security planners have not abandoned all reason. Nor have PCs and NPCs. As a player, runners on my team are intelligent in their use of wireless equipment. There is still a place for a simple FM analog transceiver., and PCs (and NPCs) recognize this. As a GM, the world in general recognizes there are times where security trumps convenience.

Similarly, security planners in my world still get their way some of the time. However convenient wireless technology is, there are secure places in my own game world where wireless is simply inappropriate. Outside connections to the matrix are hard-wired and heavily secured (both physically and virtually) or non-existant (in the case of ultra-secure facilities).

Use common sense, is my motto.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kzt
post May 4 2007, 10:49 PM
Post #3


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,537
Joined: 27-August 06
From: Albuquerque NM
Member No.: 9,234



You could also assume that everyone didn't get their brain eaten and remembers how to write encryption algorithms that work. In terms of shadowrun plausibility, I'd argue that Magic returning is more likely than people cracking decent encryption in seconds with hand held computers.

In the real world there are wireless networks approved for transmitting classified data. Given that cracking a 128 bit cypher will release several megatons of waste heat I think that whoever wrote the matrix rules hasn't the foggiest clue what encryption really is, how and why it is used on computer networks and why the laws of physics make it difficult to crack.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Nocturne
post May 5 2007, 12:37 AM
Post #4


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 49
Joined: 28-April 07
Member No.: 11,557



I see no particular reason why, in a highly-secure installation, you would have exclusively wireless cameras, sensors, databases, and other sensitive peripherals. These things need wired power, so it's trivial to ratchet security up by wiring the network too. Shadowrunners will go partially-wired for best security too (skinlinks, old-school datajacks, etc.), and corp security techs aren't stupid. It gives players a chance to use other tech skills to find and patch into these wired networks as well.

The sheer convenience of wireless will mean that low-to-mid security areas will have varying ratios of wireless to wired. Because employees need to accomplish actual work, there WILL be hackable wireless nodes that can be used to get into almost any wired systems... it just might not be a cakewalk all the time, since it introduces gateways where security can be concentrated. And the REALLY hairy sites won't have any wireless access to the Good Stuff.

That said, I refuse to go back to the old SR (and old Cyberpunk) methods of carefully mapped networks, like a mini-dungeon to occupy your hacker. There might be gateway wireless nodes into the more secure wired nodes, but I don't want to return to the good old days of "Ok team, chill for an hour or so while the decker plays with the network...".
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kigmatzomat
post May 5 2007, 02:02 AM
Post #5


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 909
Joined: 26-August 05
From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.)
Member No.: 7,626



Way I've been pondering it is to assume that 15-25% of any serious security system is wireless. IMO they bought a crapload of wireless gear right off the bat to get back on their feet post-Crash2. Then they decided to keep it but put it in as a secondary role, mainly that of unpredictability.

One problem with any security system is that it costs a fortune to significantly modify it. But, if one sensor out of every 4-6 are portable, you can change your security profile relatively easily. Your fixed installation will provide your baseline coverage but the wireless supplements and acts as a wildcard.

Mom'n pop shops, stripmalls, stuffershacks, and the like will continue to rely almost exclusively on wireless just because it's cheap and doesn't require much planning; unbox it, subscribe it, screw it on the wall, set a reminder to change the batteries in three weeks.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Aaron
post May 5 2007, 02:20 AM
Post #6


Mr. Johnson
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,148
Joined: 27-February 06
From: UCAS
Member No.: 8,314



I have posted a description of how one could securely use a ubiquitous wireless internetwork, in a manner consistent with the RAW, in other threads. However, I am posting this on my Palm TX while sitting in on a Shadowrun Missions game at my FNGS, and I've already spent five minutes just writing to this point (call it a demonstration of a low System and Response Rating). Would someone be so kind as to apply their search-fu in my place?

Incidentally, I've been thinking of making an explanatory Flash animation or something equally accessible to people who are non-technical, although some of my colleagues tell me I should patent it first.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Aaron
post May 5 2007, 04:19 AM
Post #7


Mr. Johnson
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,148
Joined: 27-February 06
From: UCAS
Member No.: 8,314



Never mind, I'm home now.

Audio example of hacking: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?act=...ndpost&p=524056

I'm not finding anything good describing a way to send and receive messages wirelessly in a search of all my posts, and I may just be missing it, so I'll just write that part again.

Let's say we have a message, like "Attack at dawn." For whatever reason, I don't have any encryption scheme available, so instead I'll split the message up into an arbitrary number of unintelligible segments and send them via the same number of couriers. Each courier will take a different route and deliver their segments at varying times.

Let's say I choose five segments for my message. I then number each character of my message, counting off by fives. I then have something like this:
CODE
A t t a c k   a t   d a w n .
0 1 2 3 4 0 1 2 3 4 0 1 2 3 4

Then I group all like numbers together, and get the following five messages:
CODE
0: Akd
1: t a
2: taw
3: atn
4: c .

Now, the couriers don't know the message, and they can't figure it out by just looking at the message that they carry, unless they know into how many parts the message was split, and I didn't tell them. Heck, I might even send a few decoy couriers, just in case.

The couriers each give the message to the recipient, who reassembles the message. Therefore, provided each courier takes a different route, the wireless message is safe, except where one can read all of the message, which only happens on either end of the communication path. The RAW reflects this by limiting wireless eavesdropping to areas within Signal range of the victim. (Boyle et al. 225)

Does that make sense?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Whipstitch
post May 5 2007, 04:55 AM
Post #8


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,883
Joined: 16-December 06
Member No.: 10,386



QUOTE (kzt @ May 4 2007, 05:49 PM)
You could also assume that everyone didn't get their brain eaten and remembers how to write encryption algorithms that work.  In terms of shadowrun plausibility, I'd argue that Magic returning is more likely than people cracking decent encryption in seconds with hand held computers.

In the real world there are wireless networks approved for transmitting classified data.  Given that cracking a 128 bit cypher will release several megatons of waste heat I think that whoever wrote the matrix rules hasn't the foggiest clue what encryption really is, how and why it is used on computer networks and why the laws of physics make it difficult to crack.

The guys who wrote the rules may not know much about the gritty details of why encryption is so hard to break, but they certainly realize that encryption is a helluva lot stronger today than the stuff put into the RAW. They flat out admitted it was a design choice in the FAQ, since the entire point of what they've done to the matrix is to keep the game from degenerating to a staring contest between the hacker and a pile of stubborn dice. Encryption is simply one of the casualties.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ravor
post May 5 2007, 04:52 PM
Post #9


Cybernetic Blood Mage
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,472
Joined: 11-March 06
From: Northeastern Wyoming
Member No.: 8,361



You know, although mesh networks, ect are mentioned in RAW as being the bottom layer of the Matrix that most people interface with, you can't find anywhere stating that yes, everything in the Matrix is indeed wireless, and the only description of how the Matrix's topology actually works describes 'hardwired base stations' and local infrastruture, which in a truly ad-hoc wireless network wouldn't be needed.

So I'd say that it isn't much of a stretch if any to say that although your average wageslave interfaces with the corps network via wireless for his day job, after that bottom level most everything switches back to good old fashioned wires.

Oh and Aaron, I am perfectly and painstakingly aware that in real-life it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to set up what is supposed to be a 'wireless Matrix' the way that RAW describes it as being set up, but Shadowrun computers have never really followed the model of 'real life' anyways, the latest example being Encryption that doesn't hold up to a strong sneeze.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rotbart van Dain...
post May 5 2007, 05:02 PM
Post #10


Hoppelhäschen 5000
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,807
Joined: 3-January 04
Member No.: 5,951



QUOTE (kzt)
You could also assume that everyone didn't get their brain eaten and remembers how to write encryption algorithms that work.

..you mean, like data encryption algorithms that took a single action to break with a deck? :rotfl:
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kyoto Kid
post May 5 2007, 05:50 PM
Post #11


Bushido Cowgirl
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,782
Joined: 8-July 05
From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats
Member No.: 7,490



QUOTE (Novturne)
And the REALLY hairy sites won't have any wireless access to the Good Stuff.

...and this is why a datajack is still useful.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hobgoblin
post May 5 2007, 06:34 PM
Post #12


panda!
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,331
Joined: 8-March 02
From: north of central europe
Member No.: 2,242



QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (kzt @ May 5 2007, 12:49 AM)
You could also assume that everyone didn't get their brain eaten and remembers how to write encryption algorithms that work.

..you mean, like data encryption algorithms that took a single action to break with a deck? :rotfl:

take decss and aacs keys, but mix in swat strikes on the people spreading them, the server parks housing them and so on...

thats shadowrun encryption for you...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Crusher Bob
post May 6 2007, 04:18 AM
Post #13


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,598
Joined: 15-March 03
From: Hong Kong
Member No.: 4,253



QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
QUOTE (Novturne)
And the REALLY hairy sites won't have any wireless access to the Good Stuff.

...and this is why a datajack is still useful.

You run a plug from your comlink into the port of the isolated system and then attack/login as normal. The extra hole in your head is no longer needed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Wasabi
post May 6 2007, 06:47 AM
Post #14


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,251
Joined: 11-September 04
From: GA
Member No.: 6,651



QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
QUOTE (Novturne)
And the REALLY hairy sites won't have any wireless access to the Good Stuff.

...and this is why a datajack is still useful.

...or Trodes
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Aaron
post May 6 2007, 01:37 PM
Post #15


Mr. Johnson
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,148
Joined: 27-February 06
From: UCAS
Member No.: 8,314



QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
You run a plug from your comlink into the port of the isolated system and then attack/login as normal. The extra hole in your head is no longer needed.

And when your commlink is an implant ...?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rotbart van Dain...
post May 6 2007, 01:48 PM
Post #16


Hoppelhäschen 5000
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,807
Joined: 3-January 04
Member No.: 5,951



..you get yourself a plug with wifi build in.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fix-it
post May 6 2007, 03:48 PM
Post #17


Creating a god with his own hands
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,405
Joined: 30-September 02
From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1
Member No.: 3,364



QUOTE (Shev)
There have already been concerns about cell phone signals screwing with bee's navigations. No bees, no pollination, and things begin to get bad.

hah. bullshit pseudoscience. we would have seen the effects by now.

there was a story circulating about the bees thing. but I can't count the number of wifi points in my neighborhood, and I still have a bees nest out my window. same thing with bumblebees.

they are not affected by ghz range signals. there was no scientific study backing up that story.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Crusher Bob
post May 6 2007, 04:17 PM
Post #18


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,598
Joined: 15-March 03
From: Hong Kong
Member No.: 4,253



Bee thing (Colony Collapse Disorder) on wikipedia.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
knasser
post May 6 2007, 04:25 PM
Post #19


Shadow Cartographer
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,737
Joined: 2-June 06
From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West)
Member No.: 8,636



QUOTE (Fix-it)
QUOTE (Shev @ May 4 2007, 10:24 PM)
There have already been concerns about cell phone signals screwing with bee's navigations.  No bees, no pollination, and things begin to get bad.

hah. bullshit pseudoscience. we would have seen the effects by now.


Do you know one of the things that brought down the Roman Empire was postulated to have been their adoption of lead piping? They couldn't see anything wrong with it and the effects took quite a while to show. But the ruling classes of Rome were steadily poisoning themselves.

The question is, are you right to claim certainty when the other side expresses doubts and caution?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
wilcoxon
post May 6 2007, 05:44 PM
Post #20


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 69
Joined: 3-October 06
Member No.: 9,529



QUOTE (knasser)
QUOTE (Fix-it @ May 6 2007, 03:48 PM)
QUOTE (Shev @ May 4 2007, 10:24 PM)
There have already been concerns about cell phone signals screwing with bee's navigations.  No bees, no pollination, and things begin to get bad.

hah. bullshit pseudoscience. we would have seen the effects by now.


Do you know one of the things that brought down the Roman Empire was postulated to have been their adoption of lead piping? They couldn't see anything wrong with it and the effects took quite a while to show. But the ruling classes of Rome were steadily poisoning themselves.

The question is, are you right to claim certainty when the other side expresses doubts and caution?

That's what he was saying though. No "other side" has expressed any doubts (besides so-called "news" trying to increase reader/viewer-ship). I really wish "news" would actually check stories instead of just cut-and-pasting what a different news outlet said.

There has never been a study of cell phone affect on bees (to my knowledge). The one study constantly referred to was a German study of the effects of a wireless phone signal (900MHz IIRC) on bees (they put a base station inside the bee hive) and had nothing to do with cell phones.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rotbart van Dain...
post May 6 2007, 05:46 PM
Post #21


Hoppelhäschen 5000
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,807
Joined: 3-January 04
Member No.: 5,951



DECT is really evil.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
knasser
post May 6 2007, 05:57 PM
Post #22


Shadow Cartographer
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,737
Joined: 2-June 06
From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West)
Member No.: 8,636



QUOTE (wilcoxon @ May 6 2007, 05:44 PM)
That's what he was saying though.  No "other side" has expressed any doubts (besides so-called "news" trying to increase reader/viewer-ship).  I really wish "news" would actually check stories instead of just cut-and-pasting what a different news outlet said.


Okay, fair enough in that case. I don't know much about this. I'm just wary of adopting a tone of complete certainty in areas that are still very new. We're still clearing out the odd atic full of asbestos installation in the UK from time to time. We see unexpected effects of widespread use of new technology often enough to know that some things are only obvious in retrospect. It's not unreasonable for people to be wary if they choose to be, and not fair to characterise that wariness as always a quality of ignorance.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hobgoblin
post May 6 2007, 06:22 PM
Post #23


panda!
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,331
Joined: 8-March 02
From: north of central europe
Member No.: 2,242



well there is as always a line between caution and panic...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kzt
post May 6 2007, 08:10 PM
Post #24


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,537
Joined: 27-August 06
From: Albuquerque NM
Member No.: 9,234



QUOTE (knasser)
We're still clearing out the odd atic full of asbestos installation in the UK from time to time.

This wasn't a new issue that nobody knew about. It was well understood.

The main cause of the asbestos issue in the US was the US government, which choose to operate their facilities in ways that were totally unsafe. This resulted in the safety precautions that had prevailed prior to WW2 being never brought back on line for decades.

Does government protect us from hazardous products, or does it put us in harm's way?

Everyone knew that this wasn't good to breath: "By the early 20th century insurance companies recognized asbestos fabrication as among the occupations most dangerous to human health, and by the 1930s-that is to say, before the outbreak of World War II-workers' compensation systems listed asbestosis as a compensable condition."

The goverment choose to ignore this: "As federal judge Jack Weinstein put it in a ruling on later litigation: "The Navy, though aware of the hazards posed by asbestos dust, in its urge to build its warships as quickly as possible, did not inform workers of the dangers and neglected to make available protective precautions." Indeed, the judge noted, "The evidence produced indicates that these risks were known to Government officials at least as high as the highest Navy personnel and probably known to the President of the United States.""
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hobgoblin
post May 6 2007, 08:55 PM
Post #25


panda!
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,331
Joined: 8-March 02
From: north of central europe
Member No.: 2,242



when its war, the law is only ink on paper...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 29th March 2024 - 07:45 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.