Playing a Face... Options

[Unarmed]

I'm currently playing a face in our PnP campaign, and I was wondering how everyone else handles the balance between the actual social skills of the player playing the face, and the charisma of the character in question. I'm not an uncharismatic guy, but the character I'm playing is far more convincing and suave than I will ever hope to be.

It seemed like in last night's session the GM handled things a little more through RP than I would have liked, my character ended up getting into a fight that he perhaps wouldn't have, but he was able to handle the fight alright and the end turned into a good RP moment. I'm sure there are groups out there that handle things almost entirely through rolls and others that do mostly RP, but I'm just looking for some perspectives.

[Demon_Bob]

What we do at times is ask the player to describe what he does or what his character says and then add die modifiers to his roll.

Generally +/- 1 or 2 die

This can cause problems with the socially inept player running a Face. One time the GM asked the group how many of you would feel insulted by those statements, if you were a poor street urchin. When over half the group raised their hands without hesitation he gave a -6 die penalty.

[X-Kalibur]

Times like these I enjoy the homemade "Common Sense" quality. Sometimes, you really just should know better :D

[Shadow]

GM's even good ones often fall into the trap of making a player RP his conversations with little or no input by the dice. What you need to do is speak to the GM privatly and ask him not to do this. Explain to him that you want to play the really charismatic, dashing guy who can fast talk his way out of just about anything. Explain to him that you are happy to make a best effort RP but when it comes down to it, the dice should do the talking.

If he balks, ask him if he would actually make you shoot someone with a gun instead of rolling dice, or lift a heavy object.

[X-Kalibur]

[Jack Kain]

[Shadow]

Oh shut upfor heavens sake. It's a role playing game who's rules are administered by dice. All the above words are equally important. ROLE PLAYING GAME. It's a game. It is unfair to ask a player to actually perform any of the tasks his character is capable of. It is actually META GAMING to do so. Just because a person cannot play a convincing Don Juan, even if the dice say's he can, doesn't mean he should be penalized for it.

I am not saying he shouldn't try to act out something, just don't screw him becasue you don't like what he saide, when his 10 hits says you would.

[X-Kalibur]

Let the dice determine how you said it then. I can walk up to my roommate and call her a whore. Depending on how I said, she will either hit me or laugh.

[Thanee]

Always difficult to adjudicate, though I try to err on the side of caution using the character's skills at least as a gauge, means, I try to put the 'roleplaying performance' into context with the character's actual skills.

Even if the Charisma 1 Logic 1 Troll Sammy player has tons of good arguments, it won't do him any good, while the shy player of the Charisma 6 Influence 4 Elf Face will be met with a lot more benevolence in this regard.

Bye
Thanee

[Shadow]

The dice determine the outcome. You tell the GM what you want the outcome to be, you roll the dice, he decides if the outcome that happened is close to what you wanted depending on the hits. That's it. Everything else is between the GM and the player. If the player wants to come up with a dramatic monologue fine, if not fine.

Nobody makes me field strip a MGL12 when I make an armorer check on it (even if I probably could) or explain how to do a slide-turn in a Westwind 2000. I just say I do it. Picking on people who want to play faces is just elitism crap.

[Moon-Hawk]

IMG, the dice decide, ultimately. If the character has good social skills then the character should do well, and if the character has poor social skills then people should dislike the character. All of this has nothing to do with the skills (or lack thereof) of the player.
That said, there's also a RPing section, where the player can talk and tell me what kind of approaches they're taking, but the bottom line is they can't do worse than modify the dice roll by about +/- 2. Positive modifiers are for good strategies, bad (but earnest attempts) strategies get no modifier (since the character would know better), and negative modifiers are for when I feel like the player isn't trying.
YMMV

edit: I should also note that I don't necessarily enforce this for every roll. If the situation is, Player: "I want to get some information from the bartender about Bob." if this is a big, important part of the plot, then I'll use the above guidelines and maybe ask him about his strategy. If it's a side thing then we just throw dice and move on, I don't penalize them for "not trying" if we're just not going to make a big deal out of the interation anyway.

[Demon_Bob]

And we apply negative modifiers to characters Infiltration skills who insist that their character wonder into a Fancy Dress Party dressed as a Ganger, Street Bum, or Underpaid Wage Slave.
If your arguing with your fellow team-mates while driving your vehicle your not going to be doing tricks as well.

[X-Kalibur]

People who are socially inept probably shouldn't play faces. People who have no musical or theatre backgrounds probably shouldn't play bards (in the game that shall not be mentioned). People who aren't good at poetry probably should take it as a knowledge skill. People who aren't old enough to drink (or who don't drink regularly) probably shouldn't take liquor or wine as a knowledge skill. The list goes on. I wouldn't call it elistist, I would just call it trying not to destroy the feel of the game.

One of my favorite examples is one player took knowledge Poetry (Haiku). She rolls her dice and depending on success writes out either a good or bad haiku.

For social skills 2 people can say the exact same thing to someone and have it taken completely different ways. The problem is that generally you have to say what you want before you roll to see how convincing it was. This puts the onus on the player to come up with something that could go over well or be completely shot down.

I agree that giving someone a -8 is a tad extreme based entirely on what they said (as if there aren't enough social modifiers already in place) but if you said something completely and solely insulting, for the purpose of doing anything but insulting them... not to mention sometimes success just shouldn't be possible.

My group has honestly gone thru entire exchanges without rolling until we got to sticky spots. It's fun and stops the game from breaking down as often (as rolling will generally do)

[Unarmed]

I agree that people who are socially inept shouldn't play faces, but I'm certain that not a single person I've met would call me that. It's just that I've made a character that is far more charismatic than anyone I know, really. Still, I know very little about guns and that doesn't really impede my ability to play a character who uses them.

It's a tough line to tread, and really I need to tell the GM that I want to make rolls for more things rather that just let them get RPed out. I do love the flow of RP though, and so sometimes I don't want to blurt out "I want to roll for this!" in the middle of a good conversation, but at the same time I actually want to have my character's skills have as much impact as a street samurai who is really talented with an SMG.

Also, should a character's social skills impact interactions between PCs? My brother's character insulted my character and then I insulted him back, several times, and then he got mad at me and as a result his character no longer likes mine. I attempted to tell him that he probably wouldn't dislike my character as a result of the conversation and interactions, but he was having none of it.

[Shadow]

I think if you can't fire an MK-19 with an Expert rating in a combat situation you shouldn't be allowed to play a Street Samurai.

[X-Kalibur]

I disagree entirely. His character has every reason to not like yours. Sometimes no amount of rolls or pointing at stats will change outcomes, nor should they. Just because your character is likeable doesn't mean that you can insult people with no negative impact.

You'll have to win him back the old fashioned way... go buy him a round at the pub :)

[X-Kalibur]

[Moon-Hawk]

[Unarmed]

There's no way that I can force his character to like mine, no, but it feels like he's not taking my character's social skills into account when making his decision. That's fine, I'll just work harder to get back on his good side, but he is my brother and it kinda feels like he just decided to make his character dislike mine to make life harder for me. ;)

[knasser]

People need to apply a bit more subtlety to social skills. Ever known anyone who seemed to be really popular but you didn't like them yourself? Either because they seemed shallow, or pushy or because you were jealous? Just because someone has a high charisma score, it doesn't mean your character (or anyone else) is going to like that person. Likewise, no NPC is obliged to like your character either. And some things cannot be achieved with social rolls. Maybe the woman you are rolling all your successes against is happily married or doesn't find you attractive or is always going to feel upset by someone who acts as though she's there for him to sleep with. Now I'd let a character roll the dice to see if he finds someone, but people have their own personalities and aren't puppets according to a few dice rolls.

And the Charisma attribute need not mean likability. It's force of personality and ability to influence people too. That might be charm, but it could be intimidation or pushiness.

For the most part, I like people to role-play interactions. I'll gloss over somethings, such as negotiation with a Johnson, with a few dice rolls, but meaningful interaction is normally role-played and if a player can't manage to role-play a socially aware character, then they shouldn't create one. The more common problem I find, is people playing above their intelligence or charisma.

[DireRadiant]

I prefer giving the benefit to players whenever possible while using the character attributes as a guide.

e.g. Player is witty, but character has poor social stats, I limit results of player wit by the character stats.

Player is not witty, but character is, regardless of amusing statements, results are determined by character stats.

Thus socially adept player is limited by character stats, and player with socially adept character gains advantage.

Generally take this approach with all skills, Player and Character skills often are no match at all.

[Kyoto Kid]

...I tend to agree with X-Kalibur and Unarmed. While a player may not have a full understanding of specific weapons this shouldn't necessarily preclude him or her from being a Sammy. On the other hand, playing a face is different in that it is a character type which is more centred around Role Playing.

In a previous campaign I was GM for, there was a player who's character was a mage who was also effectively the team's face (high Charisma elf with social skills). This player ran the character with an extremely abrasive personality to the point of openly insulting the NPCs the PC was supposed to be negotiating with at times. In one instance this character's behaviour more likely should have resulted in an NPC's bodyguard pile-driving the the PC into the floor.

Now, were I to just have gone with the dice rolls and forgo the impact of the character's personality, it would have made no sense. We may just as well be playing a board game then.

Yes the dice should still determine the final outcome, but it should also be affected by how the characer approaches and speaks to the NPC(s). There are situations when no matter how big the DP is, the character (such as in the case of this PC) has already botched the whole affair with their attitude. First impressions usually are lasting ones.

[pbangarth]

One of the atttractions of role playing is having the opportunity to do things you can't/won't/are too scared to do in real life. Anyone out there want to role play a college student during exams?

The painfully shy player who wants to be a face may be acting out a fantasy. That's great, and a little help from the GM, and some experience in the game, may bring out that wit and charm she didn't know she had.

Of course, the GM could also squash her spirit by saying something like, "What a dorky thing to say! You fragged up royally." Even role playing games can be environments in which the weak get eaten alive.

[knasser]

Well okay, everything can be modified by circumstances. If a player is struggling to play a socially adept character and it isn't due to lack of effort, then I'll (as GM) do my best to help and bring the dice into play a bit more. I suppose I was a little stuck in a judgemental mindset and pre-supposing a player that was merely being antisocial. That was bad of me.

[Shadow]

So basically Xcalibur what your saying is, that if you (the player) can't do it in real life, then you shouldn't be allowed to do it(or play it) in the game.

What a lousy game that would be. Do you make your troll players go outside and bench press a car to prove they are strong? Heaven forbid they roll dice, of course, it's ROLE playing right? What a bunch of elitist crap. Do you even bring dice to the game?