 Playing a Face... |
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 May 18 2007, 08:31 PM
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#51
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Immortal Elf  Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670  |
the key point here is that the player needs to be trying. if you're playing a mage who uses Pentozale dance for centering, you should look it up and find out about it. if you get something wrong, well, you were trying and the dice should cover you. if the player isn't trying, and their lack of trying is affecting the game, then the dice shouldn't cover them. personally, i've got a Trivia folder in my browser's link bar that is chock-full of interesting factoids i use to enhance my roleplaying of different characters.
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May 18 2007, 08:35 PM
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#52
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,283 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
As a GM I think it's important to consider the desired outcome of what you do. For me my desired outcome is good RPing, fun, and if possible having my players come out better gamers/people afterwards. The latter often by nudging them to try a different play style than what they're used to.
Anyway so my RP dice mechanic works thusly. An honest effort at RP can possibly get you a bonus, but IT CAN NEVER GET YOU A PENALTY. (Note you can still get penalties for a situation that's particularily bad or hard to have a good excuse for. You just don't get penalties for the sort of situations that you wouldn't penalize a regular roll for). The reason is that I want the person to not shy away from the RP. If you make the person who isn't smooth take penaties regularly they'll have a bad time and they'll try to ROLL play more because it works better. So what happens when they say something really stupid or obnoxious? Unless they roll a glitch while they're at it you pause and let them know, gently if neccesary, that what they said could be taken wrong. If their goal is to be a little obnoxious than let them, but maybe have the roll apply towards really irking the NPC etc. This is perfectly fair as you'd probably do it already for other types of active/knowledge skills. For example if you had a new player with the apropriate knowledge skills and they said they wanted to astrally project at full speed and fly up to a space station you wouldn't say "Ok you go insane as you break the atmosphere" you'd tell them that their character knows that leaving the atmosphere astrally is bad news. Same deal applies to insulting trolls if you're a face. |
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May 18 2007, 09:00 PM
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#53
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i don't think i'd apply any dice penalties, either--but what i might do, if a player is being particularly obnoxious, is simply not allow them to roll, on the basis that they're not doing what they say they're trying to do. if some player's being an idiot, calling the powerful oyabun names and then trying to roll etiquette to act friendly, i won't let them roll since they're obviously, purposefully not using etiquette.
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May 19 2007, 01:53 AM
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#54
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...exactly the same approach I took. In one scene, the character I mentioned basically insulted the prospective Johnson (a fairly important and powerful one that) right off the bat. When the player tried to go the route of let's just roll off & see who wins (with the PC's Charisma boosted through use of magic which the Johnson's mage noticed) I simply took out a dice cube (36 dice) removed one and said OK, and by the way, the J will use her edge (7) in the roll as well, ready? The player gave up.
Considering the PC (and player) was acting in a hostile manner, this only would have aided the Johnson's chances further. The funny thing is I didn't even take into account the J's levels in Cool Resolve and Somantic Control metamagic. Heck by dice roll alone, the Johnson may very well have succeeded in getting the PC to pay her. :grinbig: |
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May 19 2007, 02:06 AM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226 |
Sometimes negative penalties should be given for in game Social Situations.
It does not have to be based on what the Player said. The man in question happens to be from your native country and is feeling a bit homesick. You talk to him for a bit about your experiences growing up in the FatherLand, and that your hoping to visit Gramms again next month and he lightens up, becoming more friendly. The Irish Ork feels that when the time finally came that his country was liberated from English Rule, along came a bunch of snooty stuck-up Elves and took over his country. So you'll understand why he really doesn't like Elves with an English accents. The man just found out that his "all to friendly and charismatic co-worker" just got promoted to the job he was hoping for, despite the fact that it was never posted, (as per regulations), and that the "all to friendly and charismatic co-worker" has an horrible employee record that should have got him fired 3 months ago, except that he was sleeping with the head of H.R.. Now you come in and try the smooth approach. Any other would have worked great. And sometimes it should. If listening to the players conversation I feel that I just got off-line from talking to a white supremest that was trying to endear me, believing me to be of his ilk. Then big negatives, and an OOC discussion. Regardless of how honest an attempt the player was trying to make. |
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May 19 2007, 02:39 AM
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#56
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Then it is the player's own fault for overestimating his prowess. Nothing to do with Roll or Role playing at all. If the PC had more dice in the first place, but you added an overwhelming number of dice for your GM PC, then you are just escalating the conflict. But if you built your GM PC as a 1 trick pony(hence the overwhelming dice), then don't blame your PCs for doing so as well. Then it all depends on what you want in your game. |
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May 19 2007, 03:26 AM
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#57
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...the NPC was built that way from the get go (long before the actual session mentioned above), and is one of my more important "cast of shadows" figures.
In past scenarios the player in question, (as mfb commented), was often obnoxious and overbearing, and consistently played the character that way. Tired of the attitude, most negotiations degenerated into simple roll offs just to get on with the mission so the other characters in the group could do something. In doing so this character would literally run roughshod over mundane Johnsons. who hadn't a prayer to counter the PC's oft spell boosted ability. After a couple of attempts to try and level the playing field a bit I felt, it finally felt was time to bring in the big guns & give the character (and player) a bit of a reality check. After all was said and done and the mission was over, the other players in the group supported my action. |
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May 19 2007, 05:48 AM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 10-September 05 From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America Member No.: 7,727 |
Then I believe is the problem was that player and his aggressive attitude -definitely an OOC thing and then roleplaying descriptions was not the real issue...
Oh, and I do have my players describe what they do because I get tired of making up everything myself. When they do a good job, and the story is enhanced by the players' vivid descriptions I do hand out bonus dice, even automatic success if the situation was not too hazardous. What I certainly do not like the "Earnest Players vs Evil Overpowering Gms" nor "Sorry Hardworking Gms vs Obnoxious Munchkiny Players" threads that spring up over here from time to time. Cheers, Max |
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May 19 2007, 06:39 AM
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#59
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...it did come to that on a couple occasions, but to little or no avail. Because the character was continually played so out of context even after stepping OOC made it a roleplay issue. |
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May 19 2007, 12:29 PM
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#60
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
No - the only thing saying stupid and insulting things and then rolling 18 dice on a negotiation test achieves, is to damage the reality of the game and everyone's suspension of disbelief. We use dice for combat and piloting helicopters because we don't want to run around our living rooms with swords or making vroom vroom noises and playing with make believe controls whilst a critical panel of experts estimates the likely results of our actions. But you can bet if we actually could have a fight or fly a helicopter without consequences as part of the game, we would. The difference with social actions is to a large part we can get closer to actually being there. And so we tend to do that by considering our own words to be the literal PC to PC / NPC dialogue in game. To do otherwise cuts us off from a large part of the immersion in the game. But that means a player should make an effort to keep their dialogue in-line with the effects they want to achieve in order to make that immersion real. The ideal is where the player is fully capable of the social interaction that his or her character is capable of. If the player is willing, but simply has difficulty then I as a GM (and I'm sure most others) would do our best to smooth things over and make things easy on the player. If the player is deliberately at odds with what they state their character's aims are, then that sympathy evaporates in zero time. They are damaging the reality that we as a GM's strive so hard to create. When did acting out of character become acceptable again, because I think I missed that post? If people insist on drawing parrallels with non-social attributes and skills, such as the aforementioned combat scenarios, then let us at least draw a more accurate parrallel. Calling the Johnson a name then rolling an armload of negotiation dice is the equivalent of saying "I'm going to stand on one leg when I attack" and then rolling an armload of close combat dice. Is the GM justified in imposing severe dice pool penalties? Absolutely. If a player is struggling to play a socially adept character then take the simple approach of abstracting the dialogue. "I go up to the barman and try to get talking, and bring it round to who was in here last night." You don't have to make the player try to think of smooth ways of leading the conversation around. But if a player is just being an arse, they take the consequences. My opinion. -K. |
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May 19 2007, 08:38 PM
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#61
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...knasser, thank you. I agree totally since social interaction is one of the things we can realistically perform during a game session (besides, using thermite to breach the bathroom door is a good way to lose your security deposit).
If I really wanted to be a hard ass GM (& maybe I should at times) here is what should most likely happen: Face Character deliberately insults Johnson & his associates during the "set up" phase of the meet. Johnson politely stands up and looks at the team, bids adieu and walks out [no negotiation test, basically the game session is over before it begins. Time to break put the cards]. Behind the scenes the Johnson gets on his/her grapevine puts out a word about the team he/she just spoke with. This word gets around to the team's fixer(s) who in the process may have lost a bit of street cred with this particular Johnson and anyone else the J may network with. Suddenly the runners are lucky to get milk runs for the next several jobs that barely cover even lifestyle expenses all because their face goes around as if they had the Uncouth quality. But the real topic here is playing of a Face and IMO, the bottom line is if a player is constantly and purposely obnoxious in his or her style, then basically they should look at other character types to play and let someone else with more social tact play the face. Just my two rubles... |
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May 19 2007, 09:44 PM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
I kinda agree with you. I think the roleplaying should be a tool used to increase or decrease chances on the actual rolls. In combat you can get bonuses for taking cover or teaming up on one guy or numerous other things that would be considered good tactics and strategy. If you do something stupid in combat like run out in the middle of a gun fight or stand on one leg to attack someone then yeah you would get penalties to. If the player who is the face wants to know who was in the bar last night then saying, "I talk to the bartender and try and find out who was here last night." would be perfectly acceptable and you would ask the player to roll his skill and be done with it. If the play went up and roleplayed the situation well you should be like ok, roll you skill and here is some extra dice for roleplaying the situation. When I say roleplay the situation well, I mean in a way that just about anyone could do it. You go up and make some small talk, and try and steer the conversation to whatever it was you were looking for. It isn't really how well you were but that you tried to roleplay it well. If the player went up and started being rude and calling the bartender names and then asked I would say ok roll your skill and roll this many less dice for your roleplaying. Rolling a bunch of hits and still getting the information might be represented by the character being really annoying and the bartender telling him what he wants to know to get him the hell out of there. Thats what I think. |
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May 20 2007, 01:56 AM
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#63
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
So if someone can realistically perform jujitsu or shoot a gun, do you go fire off some rounds to see if you hit the target? Or do you give bonus dice for shooting? "I'm going to stand on one leg when I attack" - "If do right, no can defend." So roll the 18 dice, kick the guy dead. Dice pool penalties? What dice pool penalties? |
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May 20 2007, 02:18 AM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
Called shot to the head. Either -dice equal to armour rating to hit an unarmoured target, or -dice to increase damage by attacking a vital area.
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May 20 2007, 02:27 AM
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#65
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
if someone decided they were going to describe their stealth as running painting their naked body bright orange and running around in the most well-lit area of the facility, d'you think you might impose a dice penalty? or even maybe just not let them roll? if the player is deliberately acting counter to what he's rolling, then they should either take a dice penalty or, my favorite, not get to roll at all.
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May 20 2007, 02:37 AM
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#66
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
I'd just go with the fact that the walls of the facility are suddenly painted day-glo orange. You GM, you God, you can change the world.
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May 20 2007, 02:53 AM
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#67
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
no. me GM, me god, me not allow players to run roughshod over my world. you sucker. i mean, seriously, you can alter the fabric of reality in your game world, but you can't tell a player 'no'? gimme a break.
look, man, i understand that you're not interested in anything but the rules as written. but can you at least take a stab at understanding that the rest of us aren't really interested in conforming to the rules in the face of common sense? that we're not interested in completely destroying all sense of immersion in order to avoid the slightest possibility that the GM might have to actually adjudicate something? |
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May 20 2007, 03:17 AM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Emphasis mine. MFB: That is the key point. If the player is intentionally trying to drawk attention then no they dont get a stealth roll. Likewise if the player in trying to piss somebody off (perhaps to get them to take a swing) then they arent going to roll to make friendly friendly. However, The implied question and what several of us are commenting on, is when a non-social PLAYER attempts to have a face CHARACTER. Here you should not penalize a player for poor social skills any more then you would penalize a player for poor endurance. (how many of us could still run a mile with a full pack on) Now from some of the later comments it does sound like the player in this direct example IS trying to be obnoxious. In which case there is even a better solution than not allowing them to make rolls. 'Hey bub, we all here are trying to have fun, If you're not having fun, or your fun is in antaganizing the rest of us then your are more then welcome to not come to the game!" If the character is attempting to make smooth talk, and player is social inept and bumbles it bad (but does try to roll play). Make the roll, and then describe out what happens, giving the player a better idea how it might have gone. If the character is trying to make smooth talk, and the player is just being an obvoxious jerk. Address the obnoxious jerk like you would any other, whether it is their face, or it is the gun-bunny. Players causing problems are not welcome in my games (atleast). If character is purposly being oboxious (for some reason) then modify dice rolls as appropriate (or even deny dice rolls). Player SKILLS do not matter in determining outcome. Player INENTIONS do matter in determining outcome. |
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May 20 2007, 03:26 AM
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#69
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
indeed. s'what i'm saying.
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May 20 2007, 03:39 AM
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#70
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
There are already canon modifiers for the various skills. Use them. If your player wants to sneak across the brightly lit compound in day glo orange, use the canon modifiers for that. There is no need for GM extras. If the PC speaks in an insulting manner to the J, then so be it. Impose the canon modifiers if you wish. The mods are already in the book. Imposing more modifiers because you think the PC shouldn't succeed is tantamount to handwaving in his failure. What's the point? The modifiers are all there in the books, use them. I am not going to punish my players because they researched the rules better than I. If the worst canon mod is -4 dice for an enemy, then I won't impose a -5(and I'd just impose the -3 for a Hostile at most), just because the PC was rude to the J. Adjucate within the framework of the rules. |
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May 20 2007, 04:10 AM
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#71
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
modifiers are nice, but they can't cover every situation--and especially, they can't (and shouldn't try to) cover situations where the player is being deliberately disruptive. it is the job of the game rules to deal with characters; it is the job of the GM to deal with players. as far as handwaving failure, i'm ready and willing to do so if i think the player is being distruptive. if he's being inventive, if he's being imaginative, if he's even just being ill-informed, i'll let him have a shot. if he's being a dick, i'll dick him right back. like i said, i'm in favor of not letting the guy roll at all--modifiers are too subtle for my taste.
you're trying to keep the roleplaying and the game separate, and that's fine for you. i prefer to keep them at least somewhat linked. i refuse to allow someone to disrupt the game because they've got a bunch of dice. |
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May 20 2007, 05:30 AM
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#72
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
There is always the street reputation modifier. Every time the character showed up at a meet and stared acting obnoxious he would get a point of notoriety as per "incredibly obnoxious or callous behavior." I would assume showing up and being rude is incredibly obnoxious. After a few games the -3 from hostile and the -know street reputation mods would add up. And that's all cannon.
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May 20 2007, 06:34 AM
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#73
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Granted that Notoriety affects Street Cred in Negotiation or Etiquette rolls, but if the PC can take the -3 hostile and -1 Street Cred(Notoriety) and still have a good chance of success, he gets the roll without the GM modifiers. And it gets better from Intimidation or fear based rolls, I do not punish such behavior in my games. There is a rule mechanic consequence, I apply that. If you succeed, you succeed. If you don't, you don't. |
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May 20 2007, 07:28 AM
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#74
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i seriously can't picture in my head how your games work. i'm tempted to get you to GM a quick game for me for the sole purpose of having my character repeatedly break the fourth wall, just to see how you handle it.
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May 20 2007, 07:37 AM
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#75
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
If your character can soak the damage from the fourth wall, you are welcome. I'd take you up on that once my plate IRL isn't so full.
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