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> Different spirits for different traditions, spirit of air and air elemental
Edward
post May 21 2007, 09:17 AM
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Different spirits for different traditions

Is there still an IC differentiation between a spirit of air (summoned by a Sharman) and a air elemental (summoned by a hermetic)?

I know the stats are identical but do they have personality traits that are different.

Edward
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ornot
post May 21 2007, 09:49 AM
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If you want. It's a GM fiat thing, just like their appearances. Personally I do give them different appearances, although I used to play far too much WoW, so all my elementals look kinda like the elementals from that (basically swirling masses of whatever element), and tend not to be chatty. Meanwhile Spirits of X are more likely to be faelike in appearance, that is humanoid with traits of whatever they are a spirit of (eg. firey flashing eyes, short temper, and reddy skin burning to the touch for Spirits of Fire).

It's all flavour though, and requires an understanding with the magician PC that they will behave appropriately.
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Ravor
post May 21 2007, 02:02 PM
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Well since I go with the theory that spirits are simply reflections of the mage's own psyche given life through mana I tend to try to customize each spirit based off what the summoner expects, which in turn is hugely shaped by the summoner's tradition.
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nathanross
post May 21 2007, 02:27 PM
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I never played a mage in SR3, but IIRC Elementals were constructs forged from mana, while spirits were merely called upon from another plain. Of course, in SR4, it is implied that all spirits come from the metaplanes when summoned and return when finished.

I have yet to run into a GM that really roleplays spirits, but I think it would add a very interesting dimension if the mage had to actually roleplay his relation to his slaves, I mean friends ;)

As for apperance, completely up to tradition.
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FrankTrollman
post May 21 2007, 04:16 PM
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In character, a spirit of the air, a djinn, an air elemental, a sylph, and a wind lord are all different. They look different, they speak differently (if at all), and they behave differently.

People in the Shadowrun world do not see djinn and air elementals as the same thing. They use the same game mechanics for the same reason that similar models of motorcycles use the same stats and similar models of guns use the same rules.

-Frank
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DireRadiant
post May 21 2007, 04:17 PM
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You mean spirits aren't just a pile of dice to throw around?
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FrankTrollman
post May 21 2007, 04:34 PM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant)
You mean spirits aren't just a pile of dice to throw around?

No. Some spirits, for example, are ones that you can have sex with. While others can inhabit a viper sliver gun that has been dikoted.

-Frank
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ornot
post May 21 2007, 04:41 PM
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What if you want to have sex with a dikoted slivergun?
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Ravor
post May 21 2007, 04:42 PM
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Make sure that the safety is on first. :D
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Demon_Bob
post May 21 2007, 06:02 PM
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In third we played that Elementals and Spirits energy beings and were on the fringes of what people could see and understand. As such, the characters beliefs primarily determined what they saw. Now they may look different to themselves, but we saw them as we believed that they should look. Little differences for each elemental or spirit would apply.
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Moon-Hawk
post May 21 2007, 06:05 PM
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Interesting take on it, Demon_Bob. How do electronic sensors see them when they materialize?
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Big D
post May 21 2007, 09:41 PM
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An ally, otoh, should probably always appear exactly as the caster intended--after all, it's written in the formula, and extra forms are paid for with karma.

One thing that's always bugged me, though, is that with metahuman-like allies, do you have to blow karma on a different form for every outfit they appear in? I'm thinking you wouldn't want a realistic-looking ally running around in a combat outfit (intended to blend in with the team) at a business meeting, or in a tuxedo or evening dress during the middle of a run. While simply *wearing* clothes could make for an effective disguise, dematerializing for a quick scouting jaunt would tend to leave them in a pile on the floor.

Of course, no matter the disguise, its nature will probably be pretty obvious to anybody with astral sight.
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FrankTrollman
post May 21 2007, 10:20 PM
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That's why I get a form that's a naked metahuman, then I give them some clothes when I want them to appear in public.

-Frank
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ronin3338
post May 21 2007, 10:26 PM
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QUOTE (Demon_Bob)
In third we played that Elementals and Spirits energy beings and were on the fringes of what people could see and understand. As such, the characters beliefs primarily determined what they saw. Now they may look different to themselves, but we saw them as we believed that they should look. Little differences for each elemental or spirit would apply.

Are you saying that 2 people seeing the same spirit see them differently, or that 2 summoners conjuring a Spirit of Air will get different spirits with a distinct look based on the summoner's belief system?

Personally, I go with the 2nd option.
A mage summoning will get a swirly mass of air with eyes, while a Catholic Priest will get an angel, and a druid gets a sprite-like creature.
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WearzManySkins
post May 21 2007, 11:18 PM
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I like the second option also.

Wonder what the spirits summoned by a Rhomany tradition would look like.

<<scurries off to google>>
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Big D
post May 22 2007, 12:56 AM
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QUOTE
That's why I get a form that's a naked metahuman, then I give them some clothes when I want them to appear in public.

Well, yes, that's my default assumption. However, as I said, that tends to cause problems the first time they dematerialize to go scouting.

If there aren't any alternatives that don't involve more karma for a few selected outfits or sustained illusion spells, though, then I guess that those will have to do.
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HappyDaze
post May 22 2007, 01:01 AM
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Without Realistic Form, it's always obvious that any Spirit is not really a humanoid (or animal, or whatever).
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Big D
post May 22 2007, 01:30 AM
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Yeah, but we're talking just allies here.
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Demon_Bob
post May 22 2007, 03:12 AM
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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
Interesting take on it, Demon_Bob. How do electronic sensors see them when they materialize?

Umm? Guess it would depend on thier programming and funtion.

:D As a series of ones and zeros, the same way they see everything else. :D
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Demon_Bob
post May 22 2007, 03:15 AM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
That's why I get a form that's a naked metahuman, then I give them some clothes when I want them to appear in public.

-Frank

:rotfl: Trophy Wife Ally Spirit :rollin:
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Big D
post May 22 2007, 03:37 AM
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Already been more or less discussed in several threads. :)

If you're a mage, I don't see any reason at all not to save up as much karma as you dare and get a good ally. Heck, you can get a cheap initiation in the process.

The only real limits are how much karma you want to save up and how lucky you feel with the drain. At the extreme end, a F16 game-ender with 30 spells and 20 skills (at 32 dice) would cost 318 karma, along with 2-4 edge burned (after which you can effectively retire in a few months). However, something in the 4-5 range with a few skills and spells designed for a specific set of purposes could go for <80 karma--and will immediately give you a powerhouse.

And the best part? Treat them right, and they'll never betray you.
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Jaid
post May 22 2007, 03:49 AM
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QUOTE (Big D)
One thing that's always bugged me, though, is that with metahuman-like allies, do you have to blow karma on a different form for every outfit they appear in? I'm thinking you wouldn't want a realistic-looking ally running around in a combat outfit (intended to blend in with the team) at a business meeting, or in a tuxedo or evening dress during the middle of a run. While simply *wearing* clothes could make for an effective disguise, dematerializing for a quick scouting jaunt would tend to leave them in a pile on the floor.

Of course, no matter the disguise, its nature will probably be pretty obvious to anybody with astral sight.

that's why you pay for a form that no one will pay any attention to. a small animal, that someone might own as a pet, or even a small drone, a computer, or whatever.
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Big D
post May 22 2007, 07:27 AM
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Must be something about reading posts at 0200, but now I've got this awful image in my head of a pair of low-force ally spirits with lots and LOTS of forms, but no real spells or skills to speak of.

You see where I'm going with this...

"SHAPE OF..."
"FORM OF..."

*runs*
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