Non-Ranged Combat, Does it really suck so much? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[deek]

I've searched the forums and can't find any discussions on this topic. The situation we came up against in our game yesterday was a player to player in-game fight, where one was using Unarmed combat and the other, with no type of melee skills, was shooting at close range.

What we found was that the melee combatant had to deal with a Reaction + melee skill, opposed roll with the defender, but on the flip side, the shooter was simply able to move out of melee and fire with no real penalty, and dropped the other player down to defending with just reaction.

After the session, we discussed this and it just didn't seem right that melee combat was so weak. If a shooter can always just step out of close range and fire without penalty, why would anyone NOT use a gun? Seeing that melee is also a complex action, how is this every going to come out with a martial artist build on top?

I'm not saying it should, granted, but it seems that it should be a little more fair. I mean, if I had a gun (which I can shoot SA twice per phase), and and Bruce Lee was attacking me, I don't think my gun would be of too much use in the fight...

So what am I missing here and what have others experienced?

[hobgoblin]

there is a reason why guns took over for the sword ;)

still, guns are inhernetly noisy...

[Thanee]

Isn't there a penalty for shooting while in melee?

I would apply that, when you are attacked in melee.

Bye
Thanee

[deek]

The only two things we could find is:

-3 when attacker is in melee, using a ranged attack
-3 when defender is in melee, targeted by a ranged attack

The thing is, the attack can, at any point, use his movement to step out of melee, then shoot his weapon, thus bypassing the -3 penalty, so the attacker is potentially, never in melee, when firing...

I guess what we found out yesterday is the martial artist would move up and attack, then the shooter would step back and fire, then the martial artist would have to move up and attack again...

So, in a 1-on-1 situation, the gunman would never get the -3 penalty because he could always move...

[Thanee]

[hobgoblin]

the attacker needs to be atleast 2 meters away from the target to not take the -3 for shooting while in a melee...

[Narmio]

I would go with what Thanee suggested. Given how abstract the interaction of movement and phases actually is in SR, there's no problem at all saying "This doesn't play out like a Chess game, you were brawling a fraction of a second ago and that's distracting."

[DireRadiant]

The game mechanics are abstraction. Things break down if you think it closely models th e "Real World".

While following the mechanics allows this
A starts in melee range of B
A moves away and A shoots B, without the melee modifier, because A has moved out of that range.
Then B moves to A and punches him.
repeat...

I think it';s simple enough to consider that if at any time during your movement you have been in melee range, the melee modifiers apply.

[sunnyside]

Actually if a person tries to move out of CC they provoke an attack of opor........ er they trigger the interception rule on page 151 of the main book and will suffer an extra attack and may be unable to move out of combat.

That being said ranged still does have an advantage in close combat fights assuming the -3 penalty isn't significant compared to their dice pool. This makes perfect sense. The person with a pistol just has to have the weapon pointed in the right direction at point blank range and pull the trigger, making it pretty easy to get a hit.

I would suggest your melee guy read the bit on page 150 about knocking weapons out of peoples hands.

[Degausser]

I think the shooter has been playing too much d20. In d20 it is perfectly acceptable to take a five foot step back and unload witha ranged weapon. Remind him that this is Shadowrun. Something with less defined movement boundries.

If that explination doesn't phase, then here are some other things you might try:

1)Remember, this plan relies on you stepping back two meters every time. That's fine if you are fighting in an open field composed of daisies, but in shadowrun, you are going to run into a wall, sharp drop, car, etc. eventually

2)Stepping two meters is REALLY, REALLY easy. So much so that anyone can do it, even the martial artist. Maybe have the melee attacker make a reaction (2) test to follow.

3) If the player is going to be a super rules-lawer, then pull this one on him: The martail artist is technically still in Melee (because he started his action in melee) so there is still a -3 dice pool to hit him. Additionally, you moved, then fired, which is a -2 dice penalty. (resulting in a -5, almost as bad as a -6). If the player whines about how absurd that is, remind him that what he's doing is absurd.

(I took martial arts for a bit, and I wasn't that good, but I knew enough to keep the same distance from my opponant. If my opponant stepped back, I stepped forward. It was a reaction thing, I didn't even think about it. )

[ornot]

It seems that what your player is failing to understand is that a character is not actually taking turns in combat, but trying to make and resolve actions simultaneously makes life difficult, so the system uses a turn based system. The prior posters have suggested a good work-around by imposing the melee penalty due to the attacker beginning his turn in melee range. If the player objects, he's being unreasonable, and probably deserves to be slapped upside the head.

[deek]

I'll have to look at the interception rules. I also like the idea about allowing the melee combatant to move with the gunman...that could really just be a held "movement" action, that allows him to stay in close combat.

Granted, the only penalty the gunman has is that -3, which may not make a huge difference, but it is something...and I think that may be all we were looking at having...

And you are correct, all of us do play d20 as well, so that concept has been somewhat engrained in us:)

Great feedback thus far...a lot of stuff for me to think about before next game.

[Thanee]

[Shadow]

I think ranged weapons trump melee weapons and thats that. I had the same situation happen to me a few weeks back. The teams sword guy decided to backstab us. My ork was taking cover behind a van, he walked up on me and gutted me. I ran 11 meters, turned and fired. Sucking the 3 dice for emelee, 1 for running, and 1 for being wounded I still rolled 12 dice (att+skill+smartlink) and he only got to dodge with reaction, then I shopt him again and he was at reaction -2.

Guns are better than swords. Thats just the awful truth. That same guy, nearly every game, ended up with almost all his boxes of damage filled. Every time he would try to close to melee the bad guys would just shoot him.

"Hey Sam, theres a guy with a sword running at us."
"All teams fire the Ares Alpha's at the guy with the sword."

[Shadow]

[Jaid]

basically, melee can only work for adepts who are highly specialised in it.

that being said, adepts who specialise in melee would generally have been much more scary had they specialised in throwing pebbles :P

(though distant strike or whatever can do something to mitigate that fact, at least)

[OSUMacbeth]

I've changed the melee rules a bit for my campaign, based on the following observations of the normal rules.

A melee character will always pay much more karma than his equivalent gun-wielder, and will be less effective at doing damage.

An adept troll with maxed strength wielding the most damaging weapon in the game as a weapon focus with bonuses to his skill from improved ability will still do less damage than someone with an assault rifle, who paid far less than half as much karma and has the bonuses inherent to ranged combat.

Mono-whips will do more damage generally than even the best mundane melee specialst, even if that person maxes strength.

These problems taken together are a balance nightmare. I believe in a game where you get what you pay for. No time to elaborate now, but strength adds its full rating to damage in my games and weapon damages have been re-balanced. Melee is once again something to fear.

OSUMacbeth

[Ravor]

I don't know, I guess I'm too big of a fan of the fact that guns simply are more deadly in reality to really be concerned by the fact that all things being equal, someone with a gun IS going to kill someone with a sword.

However, if I were going to rebalance the game, I think I'd keep everything as it is except have melee attacks only count as a Simple Action.

[Kyoto Kid]

[Jack Kain]

In a world with guns specializing in melee combat and excluding ranged combat skill is not a good idea.

That being said melee shouldn't be discounted. As said the system provides attacks of opportunity in melee if the target attempts to get past you or flee. I DON'T care that it sounds like D&D, its the same basic premise.


Here's an idea
Normally you dodge gunfire by reaction only. (excluding full defense).
However if you are engaged in melee with the guy shooting at you, instead of the attacker taking the normal penalties.

You can defend like a parry (weapon skill+reaction), which makes sense to me. You use your weapon or fist and knock there gun out of the way.

[Cheops]

You can only fire pistols in melee (with that -3 penalty). If the martial artist doesn't intercept and you are able to step back you can fire larger weapons. Watch any of the kung fu movies set in the 19th and 20th century and you'll notice that the martial artist always keeps as close as possible to the gunmen.

Same principle applies to SR. Try to manuever the gunman into an area where he can't move around as much and try to stack odds in your favor. Try to find ways to maximize your abilty to intercept.

[ronin3338]

[Demon_Bob]

[Ravor]

[WhiskeyMac]

I would give the Gun Guy the Attacker in Melee Combat modifier as well as any movement & visibility modifiers. The Melee Artist shouldn't get the Defender in Melee Combat modifier [just visibility/movement modifiers] because he's not fighting someone else while getting plucked off by the Gun Guy, he's chasing the Gun Guy around and keeping him in melee range.

The Melee Artist should consider the Charge Attack. As long as he moves 2 meters, he gets a +2 dice pool modifier and doesn't get affected by any running modifiers. That's a good incentive. Another idea is learning Gun Kata. :D

I think guns are better in most situations but you can't beat melee in tight quarters or surprise situations.