Non-Ranged Combat, Does it really suck so much? Options

[MGibster]

OSUMacbeth

[OSUMacbeth]

You misunderstand me on a few points, sir. If that's my fault for not being clear then I apologize.

First, I didn't mean to imply that most people injured in melee don't bleed out or what-not just like someone who's been shot. I didn't mean to say that it happens with guns and not melee weapons. I was just trying to say that a couple of the common conceptions with regard to guns aren't true, namely that they're incredibly deadly and that they usually kill if you hit someone with them.

As to your second point, I should have been more clear. People think that guns are easier to use than melee weapons: this is true, but *only* if you are fighting someone who is also armed with a melee weapon. If you're both in melee, you must learn to parry, block, deflect, and so on to negate your opponent's weapon. If you're up close and personal with a knife against someone with a gun, even hacking wildly can produce favorable results if you aim for big targets like the stomach or throat. Being accurate with a melee weapon will always be easier than hitting a target with a ranged weapon, especially if it's moving. Even if you're in close-combat, the man with the gun still has to bring that barrel into line with you. All you have to do is start swinging.

I'm not attempting to say that my "play fighting" would prepare me psychologically for a life-and-death encounter. I am attempting to say that it has made me aware of the strengths of melee combat as opposed to the strengths of firearms. And leave off the snide insults, if you would. This is not a pissing contest. It's true that we practice with blunted edges, but the swords and armor are cold steel and leather. Put an edge on them, and we'd be dead. By the same token I've never fired a gun at a living person, either. I guess this "pretend shooting" doesn't show you how firearms work, either.

On your final point, I have never implied that people with knives routinely defeat people with guns. I *have* tried to point out that melee weapons have significant advantages, both in damage and utility, over a gun, but *only when in close-combat range.

Thank you again for the insults. :)

OSUMacbeth

OSUMacbeth

[mfb]

[Demon_Bob]

Would anyone mind doing some Rule related number crunching with matching damages?

[OSUMacbeth]

Sure, gimmie a few minutes. I have an excel sheet that does this sort of thing for me.

[OSUMacbeth]

Maxed Human with Ares Predator and EX vs. Maxed Human with Monosword
All tests use called shot 4 when possible against an opponent with 6 reaction and body wearing 10/8 armor. Gun has smartlink and spec. Sword is charging and has spec.

Predator
Base Dice 19
Adjusted Dice 11
Hits 3.63
Dodged 1.98
Amor 2.64
Body 1.98
FinalDV1 7.03
FinalDV2 5.34
Total 12.37

Sword
Base Dice 20
Adjusted Dice 12
Hits 3.96
Dodged 1.98
Amor 2.31
Body 1.98
FinalDV1 9.69

As you move the opponent to one with 9 body and 9 reaction the sword slowly catches up a little to Pistol 8.41 to sword 7.71. Melee falls apart however if your opponent has even a small amount of dodge skill. Then the gap just becomes more pronounced, if you hit at all.

Ares Alpha Burst vs. Troll Adept w/ Imp. Melee 3, Weapon Focus Rating 6, 15 strength, 9agi. Charging and specced. Human is unchanged but for weapon. Not even sure if that troll is legal but let's use him for the sake of argument. The opponent has 9 rea 9 bod and no dodge at all.

Alpha bursting w/ ex
Base Dice 19
Adjusted Dice 11
Hits 3.63
Dodged 2.97
Amor 2.64
Body 2.97
FinalDV1 8.05
FinalDV2 6.36
Total 14.41

Monster troll w/ monosword
Base Dice 30
Adjusted Dice 22
Hits 7.26
Dodged 2.97
Amor 2.31
Body 2.97
Total 14.01

The troll *almost* pulled it out. In fact, now that I think of it, with a combat axe you could edge out the AR by 2/3 of a DV or so. Of course god help you if your target spent a few karma on dodge. But, what are you paying to get this troll monstrosity who can do nothing but melee combat? (melee karma cost only) At least 343 karma if you only use cyber or bio to raise your strength and agility past the racial limit. (Cost doesn't count money.) Well over 450 if you use power points to raise attributes. Not to mention 60,000 nuyen for the focus and however much you did or didn't spend on cyber.

Your human mundane can do the above damage with 148 karma, a smartlink, an alpha, and muscle tone 3. Plenty of room for other things.

I may toss up more tomorrow if anyone wants. Hope I didn't mix any numbers up, but if I did the totals should still be good. Also this comparison assumes that you add racial modifiers AFTER base attributes for purposes of karma. If you don't, things get far, far worse. Also called shot is shown at -2 dice for +1dv. Still always better as long as you hit, but the penalty makes you think a bit more. The numbers remain relatively the same regardless of which version of called shot you use.

After re-balancing melee for my campaign, characters are actually tempted to take it. A troll with a Greatsword is one of the scariest things there is, unless you're wielding an LMG or something. It's working well so far. While it's true that a greatsword master can now kill many things in one hit, even in my rebalance you still do less damage than a couple of 6p -1 shots of EX unless you're a troll or an adept. So if the melee seems overpowered, keep in mind higher end small arms will still do more damage, especially if the target is surprised. (Because of the two-shot nature of guns, negation of reaction helps them much more.)

I was initially concerned that trolls and adepts (and the scary troll adept) would unbalance the game, but past a certain DV, things just don't *get* any deader. Also worth noting that a decent DV gives melee one good advantage over ranged (other than less negative mods): You can kill more people a turn than a good firearm if they're all clumped around you and you split your dicepool just enough to hit them. Because ranged relies on two shots to output damage, making the single attack damage of melee comparable makes them the master of multi-target damage at close range. I've only seen it go off once, and it was impressive (2 dead, 1 mostly dead) but it's incredibly situational, and the group's gun adept took out 1.5 equivalent baddies that same turn anyway.

OSUMacbeth

[OSUMacbeth]

Maybe when I'll wake up I'll post the monowhip vs. Anything else stats. Fortunately for skilled monowhip users, odds of critical glitch are miniscule, and can still be negated with edge.

OSUMacbeth

[kzt]

[odinson]

[Sterling]

The issue here is not really which is more damaging. It really boils down to the GM, because there's many devices (chemsniffer, MAD detector, patrolling drones) to thwart the gun user from carrying his weapon anywhere he or she wants to go. In contrast, a physical adept with decent unarmed is not only undetectable by comparison, but cannot (haha) be disarmed.

So sure, in an ideal situation (empty street, no bystanders, no Lone Star) the gun user has the advantage. But how often does that really happen? Most buildings have MAD detectors in the doorway. Any non RFID chipped gun that's spotted calls down max heat from nearby security. But the melee character can walk up and just pop you right in the face for decent effect (more with shock gloves) in near silence. The second you open up with a gun the concept of stealth goes right out the window.

In fact, from my early days of Shadowrun, the players had adopted a saying that went 'You fire a gun, you hose the run'. This wasn't necessarily true, but the second you started shooting the guards were making perception tests and the likelihood of things getting VERY nasty rose dramatically. It was just a warning that stealth always beats raw firepower when trying to get in and out with little to no hassle.

In a somewhat more usual setting, the gun user and the melee character spot each other at 8 meters on a busy street with (2d6) pedestrians, (1d6) vehicles, and a Lone Star drone or two (1d3). The gun user can win initiative, since the melee character is just trying to close while running full defense and taking advantage of pedestrians, vehicles, or whatever as cover. The first shot goes off, the drones are now scanning for the shooter, and the melee character is getting closer. The pedestrians all try to flee screaming (maybe a couple freeze in shock, a few others might draw weapons too) and the melee character is closing rapidly. By the time the melee character has closed to beatdown range, I'd be surprised if he or she has taken damage at all. I can't say the same for the random pedestrians.

Having rolled one of those scary troll physads, in addition to basic melee skills I also focused on being able to beat down barriers. No one expects a troll to come busting through the wall shouting 'Hey, Kool-aid!!'

I'm not saying guns aren't deadly. But guns are loud things that announce you're here to do bad things to worse people. They have their place (especially when there's a metric crapton of devil rats coming for you) but there's also a time for punching people in the face really hard, you know?

Finally, I always stress that proper street cred involves beating your opponent while using less. If they use a gun, you use a sword or knife. If they use a sword or knife, you use your fists. For the Street Samurai, there's nothing more impressive than filleting a would-be assailant armed with a machine pistol. For the Physical Adept, the other optimum method of countering the gun user is the old standby, the bow or crossbow. Maybe even throwing knives or shuriken. Even if you go ceramic gun versus ceramic knife, the chemsniffer is busy pointing to the guy with the gunpowder and screaming wirelessly to any cop in signal range.

[mfb]

it does sound like edge weapon damage should be bumped up a little. if an average guy sticks you in the belly with a decent-sized knife, it's going to be as bad as getting shot there. if a really strong guy sticks you in the belly with a knife, he'll probably rip it around some and you'll die pretty quick.

[toturi]

[MGibster]

[deek]

So, it sounds like with melee, minus the fact the damage is somewhat weak and it takes a complex action per attack, that rulewise, we only have the -3 penalty and interception.

Does everyone seem to agree with that or am I missing something?

[Ravor]

[Kyoto Kid]

[lunchbox311]

[mfb]

[Spike]

[kzt]

[mfb]

i was more talking about handguns, when i was describing wound effects. should've clarified.

it's insane to hunt a bear with a knife or sword because a) that means getting into clawin' range of it, and b) a bear's got a lot more non-vital stuff to go through, which a bullet is generally better at. SR4 rifles have armor piercing qualities, so giving bears a few points of armor (if they don't have some already; they do in SR3) would make things resemble reality in a general sort of way.

[sunnyside]

@deek
-3, interception, and called shots to disarm (and grapple though I don't remember the details of that). Don't forget disarming/grappling as it may be your best move against a low Str oponent.

(Stuff removed cause this post was getting too long)

what I do notice is a marked lack of broadswords/shortswords on police and military forces. Even for swat teams where they're going room to room, and expect their target to show up well within 21feet, I don't think I've seen even the point guy carrying a knife as their primary weapon. I've gotta think they've got a good reason for this.

While it isn't that a knife isn't deadly. It's just I think some of you are overestimating the ease of getting a good stab in.

Try this. Get a friend, a nerf/squirtgun/paintball marker, and a knifish shaped chunk of something. Now pretend that you're wearing an armored jacket so you can kinda block with your forearms if you want. Start off a ways away and go after each other. Trade weapons and try again.


Barring one of you being vastly superior to the other I think you'll find what happens is that the melee guy takes a couple on the way over. Often taking one to the head or neck as headshots get much easier as the target gets closer. Then when the knife guy gets in range he DOESN'T just get to poke the shooter over and over. Instead the shooter will fend them off, possibly managing to continue to squirt away until things turn into a wrestling match. But even if no squirts to the CNS happened I doubt someone could wrestle very long before blood loss seriously gimps their ability to keep going effectivly.

Darn it, now I wish my brother lived closer to me. That sounds like fun.

[HappyDaze]

[sunnyside]

[Xenith]

Personally, I think there should be more concealable weapons that pack a bit more punch. With maybe some rolls o' quarters or brass knuckles too.

Honestly, for melee combat to be done effectively, you need to also conceal it nicely beneath your (cyber)skin or be stealthy. Oddly enough, cyber-characters can be very effective in melee, even when compared to an adept. A nice cyberarm, or muscle aug and you have a wonderfully dangerous razorboy/gal. Toss in some cyberlegs with hydrolics and high strength and you have a high speed DeathMachine™. Up the cybertorso body, toss an armored jacket on and you might be able to deal doom the good old medieval way, regardless of small arms fire.

On the other hand, firearms are, even nowadays, highly tuned and accurate (usually) weapons. Hard to beat a hot slug going at sonic speeds with a giant razor blade, right?

The problem is, that people with melee weapons think that they can charge a bunch of gun wielders and deal death. While that might have been true in d20 with the Combat Reflexes feat (*shutter* truly deadly in Star Wars), the abstract realism of Shadowrun makes little attempt to level the playing field. Thats because, in modern terms, they are rarely equals. The only time they are equal is in melee range and grapple(maybe).

So what are melee weapons good for? Easy. Magic. Spirit slaying, Vampire slaying, 'Shifter slaying; all are more vulnerable to weapon foci. And spirits are almost ONLY vulnerable to melee outside of banishing and a few spells.

So what if you're not magical? Well you got it.... So what? Its a matter of style. You want to be a REAL street samurai? Grab your katana and wakizashi... (maybe even that tanto in case you're captured)... and be a badass. Or maybe you could be a bit more devious. You could make yourself look terrible. Yeah. Thats right. Like a bumbling wuss or a damsel in distress. Then you stick them when they either take you prisoner, or are having fun rolling you around for their amusement. Fools get what they deserve, now don't they?

If you want to be effective at range, grab some thrown weapons skill and a flash bang or those giant strobes and some good shades. Then waltz in and slice n' dice. Or grab your chameleon suit and pull some Ghost in the Shell tactics. The tools of the modern thug have expanded to include not just the knife, fist, and club but the gun as well. Not everyone is an artist of ballistic death, but you have to prepare for those that are.

Can't just go charging in a straight line, right? Doing that is a quick, easy death for us sword wielding fools. Gotta be crafty or be dead.