 Non-Ranged Combat, Does it really suck so much? |
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 May 24 2007, 02:15 PM
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#151
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814  |
I agree thhe GM should have some situation modifiers, but I kinda feel that those are handled with thhe base rules.
I'm leaning on changing melee to simple actions...but leaving the DV alone...I certainly don't want to break thhe feel of thhe game, but I don't think everyone will start using melee with this change...I'll have to look over thhe weapon table again, just to make sure that second attack in a round doesn't create problems. What I may do though, is just add a new positive quality, for say, 10BP, that allows a fighter to move melee attacks to simple actions... |
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May 24 2007, 02:18 PM
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#152
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Actually, the average cop is a lot better than the average thug. They get formal training in various armed and unarmed techniques and are required to demonstrate skill on a regualr basis. You don't (thank god) run into Matix and Platt types very often. |
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May 24 2007, 02:22 PM
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#153
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
*chuckles*
Aye, I'm done with thhe discussion in thhe thread, but just wanted to chime in and say hey sunnyside. :cyber: |
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May 24 2007, 02:27 PM
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#154
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
I had an instructor who'd seen Bill Jordan shoot. Jordan was hitting quarters shooting from the hip at 25 yards IIRC. Jordan could draw, shoot and hit in 0.27 seconds. The instructor said that if anyone could learn to shoot like Jordan he'd teach things totally different, but guys like Jordan are just weird anomalies and the way they do things only works if you are as gifted. |
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May 24 2007, 02:27 PM
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#155
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
I've never been a cop, but I was a probation officer. I was cautious, but never felt overwhelmingly threatened by the 'average thug' - too bad I was exclusively assigned felony offenders requiring 'intensive supervision' (typically drug and violence charges up to aggravated assault). Caseload of only 12-15, and most of them were trying to stay pretty straight, but when they went bad, it was pretty ugly. I hated that job and actually went back to corrections after only a year. |
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May 24 2007, 05:22 PM
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#156
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,446 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
@deek.
Actually if you still have a copy you might want to look at SR3's special melee rules(cannon companion?). They improve things and in addition are fun(at the cost of simplicity). Most of the special things are simply add on effects like "does not take penalty for fighting multiple foes at once" and so it's pretty easy to just slap the rules in. You also might want to add the idea of an "all out attack" which would give melee guys up against gun guys another advantage. Also I just re-read the subduing rules. If I ever get the low str min/maxed character that GMs complain about I have a feeling they will quickly become my friend. I think those rules prove decisive in shifting the balance of melee/H2H/guns Remember they have to use a complex action to break free. So unless the gun guy has better wires once they break free the H2H guy gets another chance to grapple them. And seriously disarm works pretty well too. With charging, reach, and a significant str difference disarming should be very reliable. Finally I meant to just hh once otherwise you look ridiculous. Sympathy for game system writers +200% :twirl: |
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May 24 2007, 05:57 PM
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#157
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i don't think punching someone should be as fast as shooting them. squeezing a trigger is a tiny motion, punching someone is a big one. big motions should take more time. upping thhe damage of bladed weapons makes more sense to me. making melee a simple action would actually make it a lot more useful than changing thhe DV of certain weapons, because of what you could combine it with. you could melee targets that would otherwise be out of reach by sprinting and then meleeing in thhe same pass; you could knock someone down with a melee attack and then shoot them, making it harder for them to dodge. |
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May 24 2007, 06:16 PM
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#158
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
What are the general thoughts of making the switch from complex to simple actions as a positive quality/adept power (similar to nimble fingers) and the cost? I threw out a 10BP positive quality to melee with simple actions as a suggestion.
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May 24 2007, 06:57 PM
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#159
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I think it's too unbalancing for some characters to have melee actions as simple whilst others have it as complex, no matter what the cost. It becomes a compulsory purchase for anyone who wants to melee and it's bad when one option becomes the only sensible choice. But I'm not against the idea of them becoming simple actions for everyone. I'd have to think about it, but I don't object to melee combat becoming more deadly. It would make melee combat the preserve of the very brave or crazy. Which could be good. |
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May 24 2007, 07:06 PM
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#160
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
Maybe have it change actions types depending on what it is? An axe, sword, monowhip, halberd would likely require a complex action to swing about, whereas a knife or pugilism would be down to simple actions.
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May 24 2007, 07:06 PM
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#161
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,446 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
Actually while it doesn't help cleave through piles of security guards I think the whole disarm/subdue thing puts one on one combat in SR into the close combat specialists camp.
And, more importantly, that makes overal balance favor a balanced character. The classic sammy who uses guns primarily, but has the spurs+close combat group if they need them and some decent muscle. Also if a melee guy is closing they are free to use dodge on the approach. They can also "prepay" a full dodge if they're worried they won't win out on initiative, or, due to multiple passes, if they worry they won't close. And all this goes double when you consider that most SR combat occurs at shorter ranges. If the defender doesn't have an action held or have a good surpurise roll they may very well not be able to shoot at a melee guy. Seriously read the surprise section. If you pull off the ambush with your +6 die pool they don't get to roll defense. Then it is a lot like you're shooting them when attacking with your bladed weapon, giving you pretty near a 100% chance to disarm and a significant chance to just end them. Just try running a couple fights on paper (or excel) of a melee guy and a gun guy. With the melee guy not being stupid. (meaning they will subdue or disarm whichever is more likely to work). Remember getting that gun back, assuming it didn't break, is going to provoke an intercept attack, and if you get hit you can't get to the gun. So I would consider the SR4 melee guys arsenal to now include (using bold as this is the more relevant bit of info) -3 modifier to gun guy intercept rules ability to possibly close before getting hit in many situation. Freaking awsome surprise rules, helllllo combat sense attack to subdue! attack to disarm! Prepaid full defense If you want to try all that out in your campaign maybe have an assault by slightly smarter ghouls. On ambush they'd roll 16 die for the surprise test. Even with their low agility they should have little trouble subduing or disarming many players with the charge bonus and "friends in combat" bonus assuming the ghouls outnumber the PCs by a reasonable 2 to 1. Twelve-eight dice against no dice should work pretty well (be sure to subdue the mage :D ) Even if some char made the surprise test if they don't have cc skills 12-8 die for a couple attacks should be rough. At that point it'll be up to the high str close combat type fighters who held their weapons or can bust out of a grapple to save the day. What if your party is the min/maxed type with low str and not much for close combat skills? Well I guess it's time to burn(or at least spend) some Edge. (after all ghouls are kinda crappy oponents even at 2-1, a liberal slathering of edge should prevent a party wipe, but they'll be on notice. ) It'll be delicious. (super shooter wired sammy). They knocked my gun out of my hands? Well I walk over and pick it up then shoot them. Ok, the three ghouls adjacent to you get intercept attacks with +4 firend modifiers. |
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May 24 2007, 07:32 PM
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#162
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Target Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: 6-January 03 Member No.: 3,840 |
I was shot once. I didn't really like it.
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May 24 2007, 07:40 PM
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#163
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
I would agree with that except for the fact that there are other positive qualities that give benefits that you have to pay for. Same thing with adept powers, specifically, Nimble Fingers, allows many simple actions change to free actions, so there is already a mechanic for this (the mechanic is pay karma/bp/magic points get a reduced action time). But, I do agree that it makes sense for melee to be a complex action, from a realism point of view...but that isn't as fun in the game... @sunnyside Oh, I certainly agree, the strategy to subdue or even disarm first is a the best way to use melee...and again, I am going to see how our next few sessions go with just using RAW. I missed out on subdual, disarming and interception, three things that would have been used during this PC fight and I think that would have balanced everything... |
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May 24 2007, 11:33 PM
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#164
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Bullets are definitely another case where Tis better than give than receive. Even the little "wimpy" bullets are bad. As someone once pointed out in a discussion of hold-out guns, "I've never heard of anyone saying that they enjoyed being shot with a .22 or .25". |
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May 24 2007, 11:55 PM
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#165
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Target Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: 6-January 03 Member No.: 3,840 |
.22 round is my only experience, and I can safely say that it was not enjoyable. I would not like to meet his larger brothers.
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May 25 2007, 12:49 AM
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#166
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 10-September 05 From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America Member No.: 7,727 |
I haven't tried this idea out, but it may help those who think monowhips are too deadly. Make monowhips a "gremlins" weapon. That is, using your monowhip would imply adding a couple of "1s" to thhe roll. That would certainly make them more unwieldy and less of a cheap advantage.
But as I have said, I haven't needed to modify anything yet, most characters in my groups have some melee skills, there have been a couple of melee specialists in here and they stood their ground. Also, no player has ever wanted to make a monowhip wielder. I did have three active characters running around wielding dual Ruger superwarhawks, though. Now there are only two left, and I like them quite a lot. Oh, "thhe" Cheers, Max |
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May 25 2007, 01:02 AM
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#167
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Target Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 21-May 07 Member No.: 11,708 |
What about a firearm that used bowie knives as ammunition?
Marc |
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May 25 2007, 01:45 AM
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#168
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
At first, I thought that thhe bowie knife idea is just really silly, but then I remembered that trolls can wield bows powerful enough to launch a fraggin' rebar at people. So I say, sure, what the hell. :cyber:
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May 25 2007, 04:16 AM
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#169
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Why not just get yerself a rocket propelled chainsaw
Part of the problem is that it's impossible for an unaugmented person to have more than one initiative pass, yet you can punch someone several times in three seconds. Of course, you could claim that an unarmed attack is several punches, kicks, or whatever, not just one. |
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May 25 2007, 06:18 AM
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#170
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
An average person with some skill with a pistol can shoot someone at least 6 times, more if not worrying a lot about aiming, in 3 seconds. I'd suggest not going there. |
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May 25 2007, 09:37 AM
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#171
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Well nimble fingers converts some limited simple actions to free ones, such as emptying a clip from a gun. I take your point, but I think a power that converted melee attacks from Simple to Complex is a different order of magnitude entirely. I'm not against doing that necessarily. I just think that making it other than universal makes things very unbalanced. There are other powers you can buy that improve melee, that's not thhe problem. It's that any character that wants to be a melee combatant takes this power as a pre-requisite every time. I personally think that the best solution is upping the damage of (most) melee attacks. My reasons are as follows: 1. Switching melee attacks to a simple action severely tips the balance in the favour of those with extra initiative passes. That may be realistic that they win, but it already is considerably in their favour and this magnifies things to a much greater level. A character with WR2 got a couple of extra attacks which won most fights. But now he gets four extra attacks. The scaling has just shot up. 2. Increased damage seems more realistic to me. I'm not an expert on this, but when a light pistol firing 9mm does 4P, I would think that Mr. Average (Str 2) would do more than 2P. I don't know much about guns, but I have done some martial arts training against knives and even against someone who doesn't have a clue what they're doing, it's way too easy to see the sort of damage you would take. Get a friend to pick up a big fat red marker and try to slash and stab at you. Do it naked so you can see where exactly you would have been slashed open. (Don't let anyone see the two of you doing this). There are reasons why the pistol might do more damage in some locations or for some reasons, but these are already taken into account with the rules for net hits and the fact that it's a simple action so you can fire more often. Shadowrun has an abstract damage system and in that case, I think knives in the hands of Mr. Average should be as damaging (and probably more) than a light pistol. 3. The reason for melee being a complex action whilst firing a pistol is a simple one, is, I think, because that is how it is in real life. Up close melee combat is much more involved with dodging, advancing, trying to get past each others guard. It possesses a degree of interaction between the opponents that firing guns at each other does not. Yes, you could take longer firing a pistol, but this is covered by the aiming rules. Melee simply is more complex than shooting at someone. 4. Increasing the damage of melee weapons wont affect the play of a lot of characters because it still suffers major disadvantages compared to guns. In the hands of a very high strength character, bows can be very powerful indeed. But you don't see many characters carrying them because, well, there are too many reasons why guns are better. So I don't see many negative consequences. 5. Increasing the damage of melee weapons will have an effect that, at least I personally, think is a positive one. It makes melee more deadly. I think requiring a slightly higher degree of craziness for people to go charging in to hand to hand combat adds more flavour. I want players to see it as a risky situation that could all too easily go wrong. So given these reasons, I'm in favour of upping the damage of at least edged melee weapons. The only problem I have is trying to balance high-strength characters like trolls. I'm not yet sure if I should however. Trolls really are nature's melee combatants. |
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May 25 2007, 10:47 AM
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#172
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
I agrees with this. Anyone I know who ends up fighting at the bar never ends up fighting very long before someone hits the ground. Upping the damage to str not str/2 would be reasonable. Unarmed attacks still do stun damage so it's not like they are deadly. A knife would do 3p on an average human (str 2). Thats comparable with a light pistol. The thing that bugs me is being able to block melee weapons with unarmed. In your example with the red marker I would wonder how many of the marks would be on your forearms as your tried to block his attacks? On a side note, the players ended up being captured and losing their equipment last game so they did make use of unarmed and it did turn out ok. They switched to guns as soon as they killed the first armed guards though. |
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May 25 2007, 12:17 PM
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#173
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Quite a few. (I would like at this point to emphasize that my martial arts experience is not solely limited to drawing lines on each other). Of rather more concern actually, was that there were a lot of lines on my legs. That femoral artery is a big target. All in all, it was an effective way for my teacher to introduce the whole subject of knife defence. Blocking unarmed is possible though it's more grapple really. I'd certainly prefer to have my tonfa (the only weapon I'm actually any good with other than my body). I could use a knife, but I wouldn't. They are nasty. |
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May 25 2007, 12:35 PM
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#174
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,446 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
As i mentioned earlier my rational for blocking using unarmed has a lot to do with assuming armored sleeves forearms. Which is typically the case. Sort of how healing assumes some modern medicine (at least in order to rationalize it).
Actually while it requires some stripping down a marker is a good knifish thing. Still I think marker vs squirgun will produce fairly decisive results. Also remember in SR targets wear body armor. In a number of melee simulation things you get people do quick flourishes with no power to connect. Now if you actually were knife fighting naked, that would actually be enough to do some damage (in SR and RL). However your SR char would have some degree of protection all over. So the knife would have to connect reasonably solidly to get through the armor. Oh and again SR4 is extremely miserly with their target numbers and have really lost a degree of freedom. So while while str/2 may seem small I don't think the answer is to have trolls cracking open main battle tanks with a club. Really it seems what you want is just a small modifier across the board. Like +1 damage to everything. I could see that. |
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May 25 2007, 12:51 PM
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#175
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
Knasser...yeah, you are convincing me against more melee attacks...that does make sense...I'm kinda split between upping the damage by removing a divisor vs. just adding something across thhe board as sunnyside suggested.
I'm probably just going to hold off on everything though, as the problem I faced last week was a gunman moving out of melee before every action, so, no interception chance and he was never getting a -3 penalty. Interception was an oversight on all our parts, so I think that solves that issue. As to making melee weapons more viable in combat...I'm not sure that is where we would take our campaign, even if they were more deadly... This has been a great thread though, thanks for all the contributions! |
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