Non-Ranged Combat, Does it really suck so much? Options

[Shadow]

[Shadow]

[HappyDaze]

[HappyDaze]

Anyone out there want to try this out IRL with an airsoft gun and a rattan stick? 8)

[Shadow]

It was a rough estimation. And I did read it. Using a standard holster I can draw and shoot in under a second, and I am not a cop. I am just an enthusiast (I just went outside and tried). Maybe if the guy was at a dead run at 21 feet. But this idea that you can be that far away (the distance most people train at with a pistol) and think you have some kind of edge is ridicoulus. If you think that you are going to die if you ever try to practice it.

[Spike]

[HappyDaze]

[Heimdalol]

I think the thing is if you're that close (6-8m) It's not about whether you can shoot the guy before he knifes you. A determined attacker, will knife you at that distance unless you place a shot in the central nervous system.

Could you draw and make a headshot against a running attacker at 8m? Would you want to bet your life on it? Probably not.

The cops don't just want to sometimes not get killed. They want to have 0 officer deaths so 21 ft. is a pretty good margin.

However we're playing shadowrun, where some people are adepts others are cybered up to their eyeballs. With enough skill and cyber you could probably run at someone with a gun and strangle him with his own intestines before he managed to do major damage.

[Shadow]

I read what was posted, all my responses were to what was posted. I seriously doubt the validity of any statement about a knife killing someone in one blow with a 21 foot distance to cover, before the gun going off. Maybe they used people who knew allot about knives, maybe they considered a killing blow a simple touch. Maybe the guy with the gun had to use a proper firing stance before he was allowed to shoot.

But I guarantee you, that 21 feet is far to long a range to be charging someone holding a gun. At this point I am not going to read this thread anymore it is just to ridiculous, up there (imo) with the people who think the Earth is flat.

[Jagger]

This is so situational it's not even worth talking about...

I have tried this and several other scenarios.
(holstered gun and knife in hand)
(unholstered gun and knife in hand)
(gun pointed at face)

Results were this:
A guy with a gun who is primed to draw on you if you move is going to kill you if you are any farther away from him than about half his arm length. Further, if the guy fires from the hip instead of aiming, you are 100% guaranteed to die. This does not mean the guy with the knife isn't going to stab you before he dies, but you can easily put 3 rounds into his center mass.

Now, if someone has a gun pointed at your head, and you are within about half your arm length away, you can slap the gun out of firing line before the guy can pull the trigger. This might sound stupid if you haven't tried it, but it works like a charm. However, the gunman can simply pull his gun to the hip and fire on you and there's nothing you can do about it.

Everyone participating in our little "goof around" tests were experienced martial artist, most of whom owned and knew how to use firearms.

The pistol is an excellent firearm because it's VERY difficult for an attacker to take control of your weapon unless you're an idiot.

Here's where the situation changes...

If you have a gun in your holster and you do not know that the guy staring at you is about to rush you with a knife until he starts to run at you, there is a VERY good chance he is going to stab you before you get your gun out. However, this does not mean the gunman isn't going to still empty his magazine into the knife holder's stomach, it just means both people are going to die.

A pistol is EASIER to use at close range than a knife, because a pistol can be fired at the hip, just as easily as you can body press with a knife attack.

Practiced gunmen have been known to draw their pistols after being shot or stabbed or disoriented out of pure reflex. Cops who are shot reach for their secondary firearm (even if they don't have it with them) while they are dying. Pistols are fast.

The progression is rifle range, pistol range, elbow range.

However, the OP being about Shadowrun, I'd say that the ranged fighter would only be able to escape melee range if the melee fellow glitches, critical glitches, or if the ranged fighter manages to shove the melee attacker away with a successful melee attack (that does no damage).

[WearzManySkins]

If you a "trained" Point Shooter, aiming only slows you down. But untraining a "aiming" shooter is very hard.

For some extremes, there is World Champion Fast Draw Shooter I saw on the tube, he could draw from the hip, empty a single action revolver accurately in less than one second. Yes he "fanned" the hammer too. :) So six shots in less than one second. :)

Back on topic...martial arts are not a good judge of fighting ability, they are merely a tool to aide one in fighting.

But my Wu Shu "teacher" put it simply, opponent has a knife, use something longer than his reach plus knife, or you will at least get cut.

With her speed, getting with in 21 feet of her with a gun, means she wins. But understand this she has over 30 years of Wu Shu, Kick Boxing experience behind her to allow her to have that speed. But her teacher a 80+ year old lady from mainland China still could beat her speed. My teacher is incredibly fast, but Madam Wong teleports. :D These two, I consider to be very extreme versions of Martial Arts training.

I only twice beat my teachers speed, but that was when I allowed my Bare Sark to gain control. :(

The results of all my Wu Shu instruction is this, the Mind is the deadliest weapon. A prepared Mind, is unstoppable. No matter how much Martial Arts training you can get if the Mind is not ready, then the Martial Arts is useless in the situations you have described. Same thing for the knife wielder, the Mind must be ready otherwise the you will lose.

One funny thing, my Wu Shu teacher wanted me to escort her to her car after each teaching session. I asked her was I the distraction?

IG once the foes have gotten close enough to hit you with a weapon/fist/foot, time to get rid of the firearm, and do the dance. :)

[Demon_Bob]

[Heimdalol]

[MaxHunter]

and there is always the dying blow rule. You could kill the fragger with the knife, but then he spends edge and you get a stabbed character anyway.

...talking about real life, bah!

Cheers,

Max

[Squinky]

[mfb]

[Crusher Bob]

The '21 foot rule' is based on the officer starting with his weapon in the holster. Police have rules of engagement that cover not only when they can shoot someone, but when they can draw their weapons as well.

Remember that is the the job of the police to de-escalate the situation. In general, the officer drawing his weapons will be seen as an escalation of the situation. So the question becomes, at roughly what distance does the safety of the officer require that he draw his weapon against someone who is armed?

From what I remember, it takes most officers between 1.5 and 2 seconds to draw their weapon and fire a single shot the the center of mass. Most 'test subjects' could cover 21 feet and stab the officer in roughly 1 to 1.5 seconds.

As for people trying this at home, remember that the holsters police use are snapped closed in most circumstances, while most 'cowboy' tests will be from a hostler with no impediments to drawing the weapon.

So, the '21 foot rule' means that officers are generally allowed to draw and aim their weapons at a suspect who is armed and is roughly 21 feet away. Note that simply being armed and withing 21 feet of the officer is not a justification for the use of deadly force (i.e. shooting the bastard), merely to draw and ready your weapon.

The actual 'deadly danger' distance of someone armed with a weapon is somewhere around 10 feet. At this distance, the first strike can be delivered in roughly .5 seconds. Of course, within this range, firearms lose much of their utility.

[Whipstitch]

To get us back on topic a bit here, as some have hinted at earlier, I think unarmed combat is indeed a very viable option, since it's always available, great for weaklings who abuse shockhands and actually has an option that allows it to scale well with strength, thanks to subdual combat. For example, my brother's 11 strength troll luchador is quite capable of dominating gunslingers at melee range one on one as well as being one hell of a mean (if a bit innaccurate) archer. With subdual combat, immobilizing isn't just implied, it's a very real mechanic, and a fairly reliable one provided you have the dice to hit and a strength score higher than most character's body (easy for a troll). Unless they're a skilled, muscular wrestler as well, they're pretty screwed once the lock is attained you can threaten Stun equal to your strength while all they can do to try and best your lock with a strength+unarmed roll of their own. Not terribly likely for many character, especially after they resist that first 11 stun...

[kzt]

[lunchbox311]

It is all situational. I think the rules work just fine. Lets take the police example in the world of shadowrun.

Page 275 lists a lone star police officer. He has agility 4 and pistols 3. That is 7 dice. Said officer is is melee range which gives him a -3 so now he has 4 dice.

Then lets take common martial artist foe say triad posse on 276. blades 3 agility 5 that is 8 dice. In said scenario he is probably charging giving him 2 more dice for a total of 10.

This mean officer has to defend against 10 dice melee attack as long as the assailant can close in. Which means these distances in shadowrun with running rules....

walk/run rate in meters (for you the other americans... a meter is roughly 3.28 ft)

human, elf, ork 10/25
dwarf 8/20
troll 15/35


Meanwhile the blade wielder has to defend against a 4 dice attack while he remains in melee range. This seems pretty good for melee as long as the character can close the distance to say 20 yards or so with the ridiculous movement modifiers in this game (also remember both these people have one initiative pass)


Edit**

Also consider as one foe outclasses another these values tend to skew one way or another. Seasoned gun bunny vs seasoned blades person... well the gun bunny probably has range, but if not there is a pretty good chance either way.

Another thing... those people that were mentioned who took 10-11 shots etc. to bring down were probably high on coke or something. This is a very real possibility in shadowrun as well and can even just be adept powers, a piece of bioware, (damage compensator's and pain editor,) or just being tough (high pain tolerance quality)
Honestly if I were to make a super melee person, I would definitely go for the high pain tolerance stuff through drugs adept powers or bioware, that way they can shoot at me a fair amount but they still go down in a swing or 2.

[Kyoto Kid]

[sunnyside]

Well that's just a thing SR, a very few RPGs model. The idea that you can recieve a quite lethal wound or ten but still keep going until your cells just start running out of oxygen and the like.

Actually I think some SR rules suplement in some edition did have rules for it where when you recieved a deadly would you could roll to keep going and going until you blew a roll or something like that.

And the melee penalty just runs into the general SR4 mechanical problem of only adjusting dice pools as opposed to target numbers. Either you have to make the penalty totally shut down a less skilled person or someone with a large pool just won't care. No real way around it. Just try to stack up what you can. So in the earlier example if the yak managed to wound the star guy on the first swing for 3 boxes and it was a little dark out the star could be facing a -5 to 6 penalty already. Which puts them in a very bad spot.

Just don't try it against a prime runner.

[DireRadiant]

Dead Man's trigger?

[Ravor]

[Moon-Hawk]