 Spririts, some questions, |
  |
 May 21 2007, 11:34 PM
Post
#1
|
|
|
Target  Group: Members Posts: 78 Joined: 26-February 07 From: Hildesheim, Germany Member No.: 11,107  |
Hi,-
i posted one question (CM ) in another Topic, but here some other questions: Summoning a Spirit is really only a Complex Action ? So like in 3 seconds i have summond myself a spirit? aint that damn fast ? Second: May it be, that ghosts are damn mighty? I had those two Force 4 Spirits of Men (Shadowrun Missions "Best served cold") And they were guarding a backdoor with the order to attack anyone who opens that door /enters it. Well.... They have got innate spell, the summoner hat manabolt.... They fucked half of the team with the manabolts before the team retreatet.... There was only 1 friendly magician, but hat was kind of exhausted due to drain and fought badly, and the mundande chars don't stand a chance, do they? Can you even shoot a spirit? In Third Edition you only could hurt a Spirit as a mundane while punching it and use only willpower for damage... kind of.... |
 |
 
|
|
May 22 2007, 12:10 AM
Post
#2
|
|||||||||
|
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
Yes, but you forgot that the spirit must then be commanded (a Simple Action) before it does anything. And if you want it to do something to something in physical space, it needs to blow a Complex Action to materialize.
Ghosts? Oh, spirits. Did you remember that they had to materialize before they could cast those spells? If not, then yeah, that'd make them pretty tough. I've never really had a spirit last longer than one or two Combat Turns. Especially not now that my players have stocked up on APDS. There are a number of examples of spirit fights in the notes for my campaign, S is for Smartlink, if you'd care to read them.
If they get enough damage pointed at the spirits. With Force 4 spirits, you only need 9 damage to inflict a bit of death on them, which isn't impossible.
Yep, you can beat the snot out of spirits, or at least their materialized forms. There's a minimum threshold of damage that they can just ignore, but other than that, they're relatively easy to mulch. Their immunity to weapons power just gives them armor. When I was playing my hacker/rigger, I had a pair of roto-drones, each of which was packing a sniper rifle with APDS ammo. Took out a number of insect spirits very nicely. |
||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||
|
May 22 2007, 01:34 AM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,927 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
Yeah while spirits are easier to use and summon in 4th they don't have quite the defensive abilities of their older edition bretheren until you get up into the higher forces (and then you get into the fun bit where a lucky roll for the spirit on summoning will level the mage, remember spirits have edge if they really don't feel like being summoned just now).
Even a regular handgun with EXexplosive should have no trouble dropping a force 4 sipirt. Also see tthe errata, but reaction for an air spirit is NOT forcex4. That helps as well. Finally you can even use explosives and the like on spirits these days. |
|
|
|
|
May 22 2007, 02:22 AM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
I was under the imprison that APDS didn’t help against spirits.
Anyway why would you use that stuff, EXEX is better and cheaper. Edward |
|
|
|
|
May 22 2007, 02:37 AM
Post
#5
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
both ex-ex and APDS work normally on spirits, barring house rules. as far as why you would use APDS, check out the FAQ at shadowrunrpg.com and you'll see that explosive has been nerfed, as has ex-ex, (i remember ex-ex is +1 DV/-1 AP, and explosive is a bonus in only one of those areas, can't remember which though). so APDS is better for things that have hardened armor (or things that have armor and are immune to stun damage). |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 22 2007, 02:40 AM
Post
#6
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 170 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,412 |
I have a quick question about the "Immunity to normal weapons" power.
In the example above a Force 4 spirit would have 8 points of hardened armor. My question is how you apply damage against that hardened armor. So if Streetsam A shot the spirit and did 7 damage he would do nothing. Because the 7 is less then the hardened armor of 8. But if streetsam B shot the spirit doing damage of 10 would he do: a) 2 points of damage (10 damage - 8 points of hardened armor) which the spirit could then try and soak with it's body. or b) The spirit would have to roll body+armor against the full 10 points of damage since the 10 points of damage is above it's hardened armor total? I've been using style B so far in play, but is that the right way to calculate damage to spirits? |
|
|
|
|
May 22 2007, 02:40 AM
Post
#7
|
|||||
|
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
You'd think. But the RAW says that Immunity to Weapons is armor, and AP applies to armor, so there you go.
Check out the Errata, page 3, second column, near the bottom. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
May 22 2007, 02:46 AM
Post
#8
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 10-September 05 From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America Member No.: 7,727 |
XX are cheaper but on occasions they are also a little inferior. That is, after the (welcome) errata they are at least statistically comparable, however XX rounds are messier and could fail to penetrate heavy armor.
One example from last game: this character Cross shot a beast spirit with his APDS loaded FN-HAR. Now he got three net hits improving his damage code from 6 /-4 to 9/-4 the spirit had 12 armor. -Yes, it was a rather nasty spirit- 12-4 = 8 which was less than the 9 damage he inflicted. Had he loaded his rifle with XX his damage would have been 10 /-2, 12-2= 10 as damage would have not exceeded armor rating the spirit would have taken no damage instead of being disrupted. Now, you could just say that is a very limited situation, but there is a character who is alive because of that particular circumstance. Also, shooting through barriers -walls, for instance- and shooting at vehicles are also two more situations where APDS are better. It is not surprising, the whole point of Armor Piercing ammunition is penetrating armor. The heavier the armor, the more useful APDS will be. I do not want to say that APDS are the holy fragging grial, but they have their uses. And sometimes they are better than EXEX. They are also horribly expensive too. Cheers, Max |
|
|
|
|
May 22 2007, 02:46 AM
Post
#9
|
|||
|
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
You are correct. Immunity acts as Hardened Armor (the power immediately preceding Immunity in your hymnal), and that is how it is described. In your example, the Force 4 spirit of man would be rolling 5 + 8 = 13 dice against the 10 damage. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 22 2007, 02:56 AM
Post
#10
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Just remember that that superior penetrating ability can backfire and create accidental gunshot victims when the bullets that miss their targets go through a wall or two. Assuming your GM plays it realistically, overpenetration can be a highly undesireable thing. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 22 2007, 08:54 AM
Post
#11
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
given that errata yes APDS is superior to EXEX, they are statistically the same against targets with moderate armor, EXEX is better against unarmored targets and APDS is better against heavily armored targets.
Before the errata there the only time APDS was better was when firing threw objects so I was surprised anybody ever used it. |
|
|
|
|
May 22 2007, 09:40 AM
Post
#12
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 78 Joined: 26-February 07 From: Hildesheim, Germany Member No.: 11,107 |
another question my girlfriend just asked:
How long do spirits need to heal if injured? |
|
|
|
|
May 22 2007, 11:01 AM
Post
#13
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
IIRC assuming a spirit is not disrupted, it's summoner can send it back to the metaplanes. When it is called upon again it will turn up with no damage. I think this can be done in combat, but it uses up services and there's a time lag as the spirit has to rematerialise and stuff.
|
|
|
|
|
May 22 2007, 12:09 PM
Post
#14
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 10-September 05 From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America Member No.: 7,727 |
@happydaze: agreed on overpenetration. APDS also sucks if you are fighting inside an airplane :vegm:
On the other hand, shooting a spirit and not killing it could also be a very undesirable thing... What I was talking about was, for example, runners hearing some goons are taking positions on the other room and shooting through the walls in the hope of getting a lucky shot. BTW, in the same session one had to knock down a door and could not do so kicking it, tried shooting it down and his APDS cleanly penetrated through the barrier, possibly injuring the hostage they were supposed to rescue. The door still stood there with just some pretty holes stil as impassable as before. The runner's second burst was aimed at the lock. One of the characters in my games just carries two predators with different loads and draws the one with the most advantageous ammo for the occasion, there is another orc in that group who always carries two ruger superwarhawks with XX ammo, he also seems quite happy... It pretty much depends if you care hurting somebody other than the one you aimed for. Cheers, Max |
|
|
|
|
May 22 2007, 03:24 PM
Post
#15
|
|||||
|
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Which is weird. I agree that this is how the rules say it works, but it creates a situation where, up to a point, the spirit will take no damage, and then if you add a single hit on the attack roll the spirit is expected to take massive damage. For powerful spirits, there is no scenario where a small amount of damage is likely. I think option A would've made a lot of sense. It would've also made combining hardened and non-hardened armor very simple. Alas, that's just not how it works. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
May 22 2007, 04:17 PM
Post
#16
|
|
|
Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
<Fragging Dirty Double Post>
|
|
|
|
|
May 22 2007, 04:19 PM
Post
#17
|
|
|
Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Also something to remember is that a Mage can only have ONE Unbound Spirit, and is limited to her Charisma Rating of Bound Spirits at any given time, so while a Mage can quickly summon a Spirit in combat, they aren't going to be able to have more then one running around without first spending alot of time and :nuyen: binding them.
|
|
|
|
|
May 22 2007, 06:47 PM
Post
#18
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,927 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
Addendum to that. In the errata they also plugged up the thing where once you sent an unbound spirit off on a remote service it no longer counted against your unbound spirit limit. Which did let you get an effective army built up. So now it really is you only get one spirit easily for "free" . And of course I guess there is now the thing where any security guards with smartlinked defiance EX shockers have a reasonable chance of putting down even force 9 spirits. ( I guess the Ghostbusters had it right all along. You use electricity on spirits. :P ) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 22 2007, 06:54 PM
Post
#19
|
|
|
Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Aye, which is why I don't allow the -1/2 AP Mods to work against the Spirit's 'Hardened Armor'. :cyber:
|
|
|
|
|
May 22 2007, 07:03 PM
Post
#20
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
I don't feel too bad about spirits being able to be tasered to death, myself. If there weren't some readily available decent methods of fighting spirits, they'd get unbalancing. I find they tread a difficult line as it is.
It's a matter of how you run your campaign, though. Most thugs don't carry tasers or stick-n-shocks in my game. |
|
|
|
|
May 23 2007, 08:07 AM
Post
#21
|
|||||||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 78 Joined: 26-February 07 From: Hildesheim, Germany Member No.: 11,107 |
I do think like you, but if you would do it like "method a)", it would be very hard to kill a spirit, wouldn't it? And i don't know how i would handle the SnS or APDS Ammunition with ghosts.. i hope my players don't use is the next few sessions :D |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Jun 4 2007, 02:46 PM
Post
#22
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 78 Joined: 26-February 07 From: Hildesheim, Germany Member No.: 11,107 |
well another one:
Can a magician summon every kind of ghost, or only the kind of ghosts which are listed in the description of his tradition? If: "Yes he can summon every kind" then: can a hermetic mage only use a fire-elemental to enforce his combat spells and so on `? |
|
|
|
|
Jun 4 2007, 02:52 PM
Post
#23
|
|
|
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Well, the first sentence of your hymnal (thanks, Aaron) under Summoning says "A magician may only summon the chosen spirits of her tradition..." so you only get five types of spirits.
For your second question, yes, a spirit only helps aid sorcery and study for the specific classification of spells for which they are associated based on a magician's tradition. So, a Hermetic will used Fire spirits to learn/cast combat spells but a Shaman will use Beasts instead. |
|
|
|
|
Jun 4 2007, 02:57 PM
Post
#24
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 78 Joined: 26-February 07 From: Hildesheim, Germany Member No.: 11,107 |
Okay, but what is a "Hymnal" ? (Remember: me ain't speaking english as mothertongue.... Where is it written? I can'T find it in the BBB under Conjuring.... edit: Have found it out (nearly) by myself, after looking closer.... Thanks a lot for the fast help! |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 4 2007, 03:33 PM
Post
#25
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
I don't know about that. If I am a shaman that is "one with the land" I would think a plant spirit would have no problem coming to help me out, they would probably even enjoy my company. Remember that the intention of this rule is to be used to punish players that abuse/misuse spirits. I don't think spirits should just start using edge because the GM doesn't want one summoned. Unless the spirit has some really really good reason, they aren't just going to squander their edge every time they "don't feel like getting summoned". If they use it when they don't really need to, then it leaves no edge for when they actually really need it. Remember summoning a spirit is not seen as a bad thing by a spirit; they do not mind. It is the binding part they tees them off, but even then, if the magician has never shown himself to be abusive the spirits will most likely not use edge. There are a lot of NAN tribes out there that bind spirits regularly, but they treat the spirits so well, that the spirits don't mind. In fact some of these spirits are said to have different behavior and qualities due to the great treatment they receive, and also possibly due to the "unspoiled" nature that surround them. Binding of spirits is also done regularly in Corps. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 30th April 2024 - 05:52 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.