Conjuring Adepts and Spell Pool?, Im sure this have been discussed before. Options

[Dogsoup]

Since a Conjuring adept probably don't have Sorcery, s/he can't allocate Spell defense to anyone or thing, right?
(Furthermore they can't Dispel, but I have a far easier time swallowing that considering that you can't Banish without Conjuring.)

This is pretty weak in my eyes, since not having Spell defense is a major inferiority to Spell adepts, especially since there wouldn't be much else to do with the Spell pool as a Conjuring adept. Why would you hash out 25 Building points on something that doesn't put you much better off than a Remote control deck (VCR optional)?

M'self, Im prolly gonna houserule this in some way.

[RedmondLarry]

You are correct. No Sorcery dice to allocate means no Spell Defense according to the book.

Many will agree with you that a Conjuring Adept should have some better defense, compared to mundanes, against spells. Though perhaps something that only helps themseves, not others (like Spell Defense can do). Your choice, your house rule. Be happy.

[The Frumious Ban...]

I've always allowed Conjurers to use their Spell Pool as a "Conjuring Pool" instead, thus giving them some use out of it. But I do leave Spell Defense in the hands of Sorcery-capable magicians.

Not entirely sure why they gave Conjurers the short end of the stick, though. Not only can't they use Spell Defense, but they have no means of improving their Initiative unlike just about every other character in the game (well, at least not without sacrificing their magic).

[Dogsoup]

I think I can see why the Spell pool isn't available for Conjuring tests, since those are most often made in safety, while the conjurer don't have to save dice for spellcasting when 'defending'. It would be the best of both worlds without any compromise done.

But they should be allowed to allocate Spell defense with their Spell pool IMO. If not by any other reason than that there's not really much else they can do with it...

[Glyph]

... which is a good reason they shouldn't get spell defense house ruled to them. They will be able to allocate 6 dice to spell defense all the time, making it a lot harder for any spellcaster to affect them or their buddies. And is there any reason at all that a conjurer should be able to defend against spells, any more than a mundane or an adept can? Someone who plays an aspected conjurer should either accept the limitations, or play a full mage.

[The Frumious Ban...]

I think the point is that Conjurers are more "crippled" than the other Magic B/25 Build Point options available in terms of what they can do. Sure, they can conjurer and dispel spirits, but that's hardly comparable to the options a Sorcerer has, not to mention an Adept.

[Bearclaw]

Spell defense is a specialization under Sorcery. If you can't use sorcery, you can't use spell defense. Makes sense to me.
If you want a conjurer who can use spell defense, make a path of the mage, take sorcery, but use the spell points to bond an ally or something. Don't learn any spells. Then, you get to conjure and spell defend.
And you can add killing hands, increased initiative and all the other cool stuff.

[TinkerGnome]

Conjurer's can't supply spell defense, but that shouldn't matter since having an aspected mage as your team's only mage is a bad idea. The advantages spirits offer over pure sorcery aren't immediately obvious, but they do exist.

[Dogsoup]

[TinkerGnome]

It costs 18 BP to make a conjurer with no spell points. That's rather cheap and works well with a lot of other concepts (particularly the shamanic conjurer). Since the force of spirits isn't quite so important as with spells (if for no other reason than that the drain is done off of the full force of the summoned spirit), you can also aford some bioware/cyberware and still be quite effective.

[Kagetenshi]

That being, of course, if you're using some sort of crazy houserule. By canon there's one cost for a Conjurer (25), and they can't get rid of the spell points, they always have them.

~J

[The Frumious Ban...]

Someone hasn't read the Shadowrun Companion then. :) Awakened characters can trade in Spell Points for Build Points at a 5:1 ratio I believe. So 25 BP - (35 SP/5 = 7 BP) = 18 BP. While a nice option, it still doesn't make up for things. You're effectively giving up the equivalence of 875,000 nuyen (35 Spell Points at 25,000 nuyen a pop) for 7 Build Points. The Conjurer is still getting kicked in the bollocks compared to the other 25 BP Magic options.

And yes, despite this, I am currently playing an aspected Conjurer in a game and plan on having fun with him. That doesn't negate the fact that compared to an aspected Sorcerer or even Shamanist/Elementalist, they get the shaft. They get no bonus pool to augment their abilities, they don't have any complimentary options to boost their Initiative or Reaction (mundanes have cyberware, sorcerers have Increased Reflexes, and adepts have Improved Reflexes) and thus are slower than all the other character types, and while they're supposed to be the penultimate masters of spirits, their ally spirits are pale comparisons to what an aspected Shamanist or Elementalist (let alone a full Magician) can create simply because they can't give them any spells or the free Sorcery skill.

In fact, the only other magical option that has it nearly as bad as the Conjurer is the Psionic, but that's mostly because whoever designed that blurb in MitS had the D&D mentality of "must limit options to add flavor because we cannot trust players to design characters appropriately for a concept, despite that its the core philosophy of the rest of the Shadowrun system."

[Kagetenshi]

Page reference? I've read SRComp many a time and have never encountered that rule, to my memory.

~J

[Shockwave_IIc]

SComp pg 14 second side first paragraph

[Sphynx]

Page 14 under the heading Magic. ;)

Sphynx

[Shockwave_IIc]

Sorry Sphynx beat ya again ;)

[Kagetenshi]

Well bugger, you're right.
Time to start rewriting reality so I was never wrong again.

~J

[Large Mike]

That's right, conjurers *do* rule.

[Dogsoup]

Well then... I guess 18 BP is pretty reasonable and it leaves room for some Sorcery to get around the Spell Defense problem. Thanks Frumious, Don't know how I could mistrust the SR system like that!

...Now we only have to get that psionic up on his feet ;)

[Kanada Ten]

I wonder if we should invent very specific spirits (similar to watchers); one would have powers to increase initiative and an other could provide spell armor?

Make it require a Knowledge Skill for each with the maximum force relative?

Speeder
B(B-1) Q(F+2) S(F-1) C(F) I(F) W(F)
Powers: Increase Initiative (F + *D6)

A specialized watcher spirit. Drain level relative to D6 increase (+1 Moderate, +2 Serious, +3 Deadly). Lasts for a number of turns equal Successes, though Watcher conjuring materials can increase this time to hours. Increased Initiative is an Exclusive Sustained power usable only on the summoner or itself. It requires a Force(Target's Reaction) test. Counts towards maximum Watchers.

Armor Meister
B(B+1) Q(F-2) S(F+1) C(F) I(F) W(F)
Powers: Spell Defense

Another watcher that can provide a number of Spell Defense dice to the summoner or itself. The drain is decided as if the spirit were a nature spirit, and Spell Defense dice equal force. The spirit must allocate the dice before use and it requires an Exclusive Sustained action while providing the dice. The watcher last a number of turns equal to successes; watcher conjuring materials can increase the time to hours. Counts towards maximum Watchers.

Make it require a Knowledge Skill for each with the maximum force relative?

For the psionic, the spirit is quick to conjure and without domain. I think it just needs more types of mental forms. Maybe even a "totem" bonus for Spell Defense against mind attacks (like control thoughts).

[The Frumious Ban...]

I think a more reasonable way of handling it would to be create new spirit powers that provide those functions. :) For example, a power called "Hasten" or something might boost a subject's Initiative by +1D6 for every two points of Force (or whatever other mechanic you wish to use), and another power could provide Spell Defense for a number of subjects equal to the spirit's Force or dice equal to their Force. Something along those lines. Basically requiring the Conjurer to exchange a service for the benefits.

Not only would it help fill in that weakness for aspected Conjurers, but it gives full Magicians an extra option, too.

[Glyph]

Just get Invoking, then Channeling - your character will get a boost to physical Attributes and Immunity to Normal Weapons.

If you want spell defense, play a Wu Jen conjurer - spirits of the elements have the Magical Guard power.

[The Frumious Ban...]

I'm always baffled when people refuse to see the problem, then offer "solutions" that don't address it.

Because as we all know, a boost to your Physical Attributes (using a Force 6 spirit no less, whose max bonus to Reaction is going to be +3, not to mention the DEADLY drain you're going to be resisting using NOTHING but Charisma afterwards, for an effect that might last you 10 minutes if you're lucky to begin with... oh, and losing all of the other services you may have had as well, as well as taking an Exclusive Complex Action to evoke) is going to allow you to match the speed of, say, someone with something as simple Boosted Reflexes 1 (average boost of +3.5) let alone anything more advanced.

But yeah, thanks for reminding me about Magical Guard. I thought there was a power like that available but I couldn't remember what it was called. I think it's going to become a standard power for all spirits now, along with the other one I mentioned once I settle on some mechanics for it.

[TinkerGnome]

The conjurer is a relatively weak magician, but you still get something for your points. However, there are quite a few advantages to it, as well. It isn't a good pure concept, but rather a decent part of a full concept. Ie, you really need to be a conjurer/something. The conjurer/face is a good choice since you're already loading up on charisma, but you can go many other routes as well.

For one thing, conjurers suffer comparatively less for adding cyber/bioware than most other mages unless they want to summon high force great form spirits. And that's its own reward, really. The fact that you also don't have to blow karma and time on higher force spells like sorcery capable characters is rather useful, as well, for your other activities.

[Glyph]

Invoking and chanelling doesn't let you match a sammie's speed, but it does let you laugh at bullets, and even shotgun slugs. I was looking at it more from a combat effeciveness standpoint than a pure speed standpoint. For a conjuror, his initiative shouldn't matter that much. The initiative of the spirits he conjures should be what matters more. Yes, you are the only class that can't get an initiative boost without paying for it in lost magic, but you also have a continual supply of allies who fight for you.

Besides, you can get Boosted Reflexes: 1 and some other good cyber for less than one Essense point - you don't really need three or more actions in a round, so that should be plenty. Or wait until you've intitiated a few times and get wired reflexes - how often does a conjuror summon spirits of 7 or greater Force, anyways?

You have great advantages - only 18 point cost (although a favorite technique of mine is to spend 18 points to Initiate once, 12 to bond a Force: 6 Spirit Focus, and turn the last 5 points in for a build point), and quick improvement after that - only one skill to improve, Intiation is less important to get at high levels - you can spend a lot more Karma on "mundane" skills, becoming more well-rounded, or concentrate on improving your Charisma and conjuring skill to a very high level.