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> 3e Alertness and Adept questions
Vvornth
post May 22 2007, 12:27 PM
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Alertness as it stands is a specialization of Stealth that "covers a character's ability to notice stealth by others". However, one of the players in my campaign claims that it also works as a complimentary skill, giving it an oomph that is somewhat too excessive if you ask me. I could outrule it but I'd rather have a good argument for it, and I try to stick by the core rules as much as possible. Would you say Alertness is intended as a complimentary skill?

Also, from the FAQ:
http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/resources/sr3faq.shtml

QUOTE
SR3 allows adepts to purchase additional power points at a cost of 20 Good Karma points each. Does this mean that an adept can have more power points than his Magic attribute? Or does the purchased power point increase the adept's Magic? Can purchased power points be lost due to Magic loss? What happens if the adept's Magic is reduced to 0, but he still has powers left?
Adepts who purchase power points with Karma do not get an extra Magic point with that power point. You only get that with initiation.
The power point for Karma rule was specifically included for players who do not use the advanced magic (initiation) rules. It is recommended that this rule be ignored if the initation rules in Magic in the Shadows are also being used. Any extra power points purchased with Karma do not count against the character's limit of (Magic attribute) number of power points.
When an adept loses Magic, he chooses which powers are lost; powers bought with Karma can be chosen instead of others. If an adept's Magic reaches 0, the adept loses all magical ability, period.


Do you GMs allow this? I was positive at first, but come to think of it. 20 Good karma isn't all that much.
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Kagetenshi
post May 22 2007, 12:34 PM
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QUOTE (SR3 p96)
Alertness is best treated as a Complementary Skill (see p. 97) for Perception Tests. Characters can use this Complementary Skill only when applicable to stealth in some way[…]

So yes, I'd say it's intended as a complementary skill.

As for the other matter, I do not, but that is solely because of the existence of the Initiation rules (I use those instead of the 20-karma-per-PP rule). What's your issue with it?

~J
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Vvornth
post May 22 2007, 12:38 PM
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The same issue as with alertness being a complimentary skill; overpowering PCs.
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ElFenrir
post May 22 2007, 12:47 PM
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Well, consider like this. The Complimentary rule states that 2 successes grants 1 success. So, say a PC has Int 4, thus, rolls four dice for Perception.


They have Stealth(Alertness)2(4) also. So they can chuck 4 more dice...for a MAXIMUM of 2 extra successes on the Perception test....and thats only if all four dice are successes. If they have a high Alertness, 7 dice still grant max 3 extra Perception successes....if 6 of them roll as successes.


And IMO, if a character pumps their Alertness that high, i'm typically enthralled to see them raising skills that aren't combat or Social Twink related. ;)

It's really not that overpowered. Ive used compimentary skills a lot, and i typically never see more than a success or two tops tacked on.
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Kagetenshi
post May 22 2007, 12:50 PM
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QUOTE (Vvornth @ May 22 2007, 07:38 AM)
The same issue as with alertness being a complimentary skill; overpowering PCs.

What makes it overpowering, though?

The only issue with Alertness is that a Standard Shadowrunner™ will have Stealth 6, but I've yet to see anyone actually remember to roll Alertness (including myself), and they still need to get at least one success on the Perception test for it to matter.

~J
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Vvornth
post May 22 2007, 01:03 PM
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QUOTE (ElFenrir @ May 22 2007, 07:47 AM)
And IMO, if a character pumps their Alertness that high, i'm typically enthralled to see them raising skills that aren't combat or Social Twink related. ;)

Yeah well, it's the reverse in my campaign. It's a group with characters that have a lot of personal color and specialized skills, very few of them being combat related. The players have willingly made sacrifices on cyberware, equipment and skills to pick stuff that fits into their character (which is a sordid bunch with a mysophobic Rigger, an alcoholic dwarf, an asocial decker etc). This has made them kinda weak when it comes to actual combat but their legwork, stealth social related gear and proficiencies usually gets them around any such incidents. So I'm trying to construct challenges in this department instead of the mandatory ill-tempered troll with an assault cannon.


Hmm.. reading that again I guess I'm not going to get much sympathy from GMs stuck with DnD-style gamers.

Anyhow, the statement on alertness is "Alertness covers a characters ability to notice the use of Stealth by others." But would this also cover material objects, such as hidden mines, bugs etc?
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post May 22 2007, 02:17 PM
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QUOTE (Vvornth)
Anyhow, the statement on alertness is "Alertness covers a characters ability to notice the use of Stealth by others." But would this also cover material objects, such as hidden mines, bugs etc?

If the stealth skill had been used to conceal or camouflage the the object in question (successes might add to the object's concealment TN or set a threshold) you could allow the use of alertness.
Though I don't like complementary skills, too much like dice rolling but without the pay off.
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Kagetenshi
post May 22 2007, 03:02 PM
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On page 96, slightly past the quote I posted above, it lists "spotting a camouflaged person or item" (emphasis added). My interpretation of "camouflaged" is that it applies only to deliberate attempts to hide the item—a mine buried just underneath the surface of the ground would get Alertness, while finding your keys in the parking lot or the tall grass after dropping them would not. Sort of a "if I were going to hide something, where and how would I hide it?" sort of thing.

~J
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toturi
post May 22 2007, 03:06 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Vvornth @ May 22 2007, 07:38 AM)
The same issue as with alertness being a complimentary skill; overpowering PCs.

What makes it overpowering, though?

The only issue with Alertness is that a Standard Shadowrunner™ will have Stealth 6, but I've yet to see anyone actually remember to roll Alertness (including myself), and they still need to get at least one success on the Perception test for it to matter.

~J

I always roll Stealth(Alertness) when doing the old Perception tests. The GM can disregard it if he wants, but I roll it anyway.
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mfb
post May 22 2007, 04:51 PM
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i forget where or why we started doing this, but since a lot of our perception tests are open, we just add half our stealth dice to the test. i think that's a general rule about complimentary dice and open tests, not sure.

as for over-powered, i personally don't see it. i mean, maybe if you were dealing with a guy like my old main char, who could actually pull out more complimentary dice (even at half) than his base perception roll, but even then, the perception/stealth rules are so wonky i don't think it matters much.
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Kagetenshi
post May 22 2007, 04:54 PM
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Do you really treat it like an open test? I thought that using the "open test" option was just an artifact of an unrevealed TN.

~J
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mfb
post May 22 2007, 04:57 PM
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yeah, now that i think about it, we're doing it wrong. the fact that the perceiver doesn't know what the TN is doesn't actually make it an open test.
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Chibu
post May 23 2007, 04:19 PM
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I'm only seeing one way to really overpower it at all, and that's a Stealth Adept. I actually didn't know about Alertness until I just read this, but I'm a hacker, so I try to see ways to make systems do things they weren't intended to do. I have to be real careful not to make stupid twinked characters.

Anyway, an Adept with a 6 in Stealth and 6 extra dice would have 12 in Alertness. combine this with a 6 intelligence and possible some extra perception dice (4) and you're going to roll 22 dice if using complementary rules. Or if just rolling the skill, you still have 12. Other than that, we don't have much of a problem really. As a GM who's players and a player who's group likes to make stupid combat monsters while i like to take things like Anthropology... I'd like to point out that this really isn't a problem. Take, for instance, a Rigger with good sensors. They'll see the person just as easily. Next, take a speed sammy, If you want speed, you want high intelligence and quickness as well as reaction/init enhancers. So, you start off with an intelligence of 6, add in some encephalon, cerebral booster, (is that really all that adds to int?) for an int, and therefore perception, of 10 and you'll really get the same thing.

So, the way I see it, It's not really all that bad unless you are really trying to break it. And even then... So you are specialized in seeing stealthy people, so what? Yes you can see them. Yes you can see the bullet coming towards your face (he was trying to shoot stealthily :P). Yes it still makes a mess of your brain on the wall.
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Kagetenshi
post May 23 2007, 04:30 PM
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Well, for me it all comes down to one simple fact: even if you're rolling a billion dice on your complementary skill, none of them count for anything unless you get a success on the main roll. Enough people forget that one success is a "something's there, you think. Maybe." sort of deal that a few extra successes usually aren't a problem, and even when they remember I don't think it causes issues.

I mean, genuinely, in what situation is this really a problem? I can understand the difference between being aware of something and not being aware of something, but is it really that overpowering for certain dedicated characters to be able to ensure, in many circumstances, that when they are aware of something they are more than peripherally aware of it?

~J
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Chibu
post May 23 2007, 04:54 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 23 2007, 11:30 AM)
I mean, genuinely, in what situation is this really a problem? I can understand the difference between being aware of something and not being aware of something, but is it really that overpowering for certain dedicated characters to be able to ensure, in many circumstances, that when they are aware of something they are more than peripherally aware of it?

Right, I agree. I think it's much more of a problem that they possibly have a 12 in STEALTH than that they have a slightly better chance of seeing someone else who's stealthy. Personally, I find characters who have too much stealth to be annoying. in fact, I find characters who are way too specialized in ANYTHING to be annoying. I really wish our current GM would have lone star get a sniper on the troll in full body (looks like shiny platemail...) armor. And the adept with a ton of dice in stealth, who uses ruthinium polymers is also kind of annoying (sorry Mortax if you read this, but it is :P). Especially when we're supposed to be a TEAM that is able to do something other than be sneaky and fight. So that leaves me filling the rest of the holes as a mage, compitnet fighter, decker... the list goes on. I mean sure, I can take out a bug hive alone and I've saved the teams hoop plenty of times that they don't even know about (only one member knows I'm a phys-mage). So, I guess it's just annoying when there's a character who's usefullness includes being able to take a hit and being able to kill things; or Being stealthy and being able to kill things. or being a mage that doesn't know about shadowrun (my girlfriend, so I can't really complain :P) or "i have a tac computer". The face is cool though :P

So, overall, being too specialized in that manner is more of an annoyance for me than it is an actual problem. It doesn't unbalance the game, just make the runs harder if the runners seem too good. And yeah, i've never used complimentry skills, and we play 2ed, so there is no alertness skill. So, ya know... whatever.
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mfb
post May 23 2007, 05:08 PM
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heh, you'd hate my guy. stealth 5 (sneaking 7), centering 6, centering focus 6, ruthenium-coated diving suit with thermal damping. stealth's an open test, so i roll 13 dice and add 8 to the highest die.

of course, he's got 200 earned karma, so he oughtta be pretty good at what he does.
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Kagetenshi
post May 23 2007, 09:34 PM
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QUOTE (Chibu)
"i have a tac computer".

Having a tactical computer with a good SUT skill, especially if you're a Rigger, makes the entire team better. The only real problem with it is that it's so expensive that it renders the character fairly single-use, but still, it's an incredibly useful role.

~J
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Wounded Ronin
post May 23 2007, 10:50 PM
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QUOTE (Chibu)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 23 2007, 11:30 AM)
I mean, genuinely, in what situation is this really a problem? I can understand the difference between being aware of something and not being aware of something, but is it really that overpowering for certain dedicated characters to be able to ensure, in many circumstances, that when they are aware of something they are more than peripherally aware of it?

Right, I agree. I think it's much more of a problem that they possibly have a 12 in STEALTH than that they have a slightly better chance of seeing someone else who's stealthy. Personally, I find characters who have too much stealth to be annoying. in fact, I find characters who are way too specialized in ANYTHING to be annoying. I really wish our current GM would have lone star get a sniper on the troll in full body (looks like shiny platemail...) armor. And the adept with a ton of dice in stealth, who uses ruthinium polymers is also kind of annoying (sorry Mortax if you read this, but it is :P). Especially when we're supposed to be a TEAM that is able to do something other than be sneaky and fight. So that leaves me filling the rest of the holes as a mage, compitnet fighter, decker... the list goes on. I mean sure, I can take out a bug hive alone and I've saved the teams hoop plenty of times that they don't even know about (only one member knows I'm a phys-mage). So, I guess it's just annoying when there's a character who's usefullness includes being able to take a hit and being able to kill things; or Being stealthy and being able to kill things. or being a mage that doesn't know about shadowrun (my girlfriend, so I can't really complain :P) or "i have a tac computer". The face is cool though :P

So, overall, being too specialized in that manner is more of an annoyance for me than it is an actual problem. It doesn't unbalance the game, just make the runs harder if the runners seem too good. And yeah, i've never used complimentry skills, and we play 2ed, so there is no alertness skill. So, ya know... whatever.

Shadowrun rewards specialization, though. You're asking people to make non-optimal characters.
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Kagetenshi
post May 23 2007, 10:55 PM
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It rewards a certain level of specialization. There's a point of negative returns.

~J
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Chibu
post May 23 2007, 10:58 PM
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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
Shadowrun rewards specialization, though. You're asking people to make non-optimal characters.

In fact. What I'm asking is that people make REALISTIC characters. Everyone knows thing. Everyone has hobbies. Everyone has stupid, pointless skills. These people take like... 4 skills; Stealth, athletics, firearms, and melee weapons. People know more than that. I'm not saying that they should be BAD. I'm saying that with my 14 skills, I shouldn't have more than the rest of the group combined (that's until the face joined, and he has 10 or something). Like I said, my character isn't bad or anything, he can still kill stuff. But he has skills that make sense for him. You can tweek the crap out of it, sure. But make it realistic. Is that too much to ask?
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Wounded Ronin
post May 23 2007, 11:15 PM
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QUOTE (Chibu)
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ May 23 2007, 05:50 PM)
Shadowrun rewards specialization, though.  You're asking people to make non-optimal characters.

In fact. What I'm asking is that people make REALISTIC characters. Everyone knows thing. Everyone has hobbies. Everyone has stupid, pointless skills. These people take like... 4 skills; Stealth, athletics, firearms, and melee weapons. People know more than that. I'm not saying that they should be BAD. I'm saying that with my 14 skills, I shouldn't have more than the rest of the group combined (that's until the face joined, and he has 10 or something). Like I said, my character isn't bad or anything, he can still kill stuff. But he has skills that make sense for him. You can tweek the crap out of it, sure. But make it realistic. Is that too much to ask?

Well, this discussion has come up on DSF before.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...8&hl=ubermensch

QUOTE

If you think about it, it's absolutely roll playing versus role playing. Cadfael presumably has really big stats because of the heaps of people he pwned during the crusades but he dosen't spend that time actually rolling his combat skills. Instead, he spends most of his time on inter-character interactions that largely wouldn't require dice rolls. In contrast, Dirty Harry spends a huge amount of time making Intimidate and Pistols (signature .44 magnum) checks.

This, of course, begs a question. Perhaps "roll playing" is not correctly conceptualized as an absence of character development. Perhaps "roll playing" is rather the representation of a certain masculine aspect of our collective cultural mythology, as portrayed in popular films and novels. Many people look down on straight up "roll playing", but is it really right to look down upon a certain archetypal cultural construct? Do we look down on the myths of Hercules because they're basically about him being big and strong, and say that the myth about Persephone is better and more correct because it has a lot of emotion but not a whole lot of combat rolls?

Perhaps "roll playing", which I define as munchkinization and systematic statistical analysis of in-game possibilities to chose the character's action, can be seen as the persuit of the perfect representation of a rugged masculine character. It's easy to *say* that your character is being rugged and tough, but how can your character truly be rugged and tough compared to all the other characters who were created with the same amount of resources? Perhaps you refine the rugged toughness of your character to a higher level of perfection through careful management of statistics, so as to portray the archetypal Clint Eastwood style hero better than the other people at the table are doing. And so, perhaps "roll playing" is not the absence of character development, but rather the refinement and perfection in the portrayal of one character type.

Here is an example. Suppose that in a role playing game I want to portray the hero of the Illiad, Odysseus. Odysseus was supposed to be a pretty powerful hero, but he was also supposed to be cunning, sly, and ruthless towards his enemies. So, in order to portray Odysseus, I first munch out in chargen to make him as powerful as possible. Next, any time my character makes an in-game decision, I have Odysseus make the best possible choice at any given time because I statistically analyze all possible outcomes. Am I not portraying Odysseus better than if he were only of average strength and made typical (but not optimal) decisions?

I maintain that roll-playing, done to a systematic and painstaking extreme, is anything but the absence of a developed character. Rather, it is the path to the refinement of the perfect portrayal of one part of our archetypal popular culture mythology.



Go ahead and read that thread. I think this issue has been well hammered out.
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Chibu
post May 23 2007, 11:21 PM
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Hehe. It's ok, I'm not really trying to argue. Well i WAS trying to argue, but that's just becuase i was in that kind of mood a bit ago. I'm better now :P
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post May 25 2007, 04:54 AM
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QUOTE (mfb)
heh, you'd hate my guy. stealth 5 (sneaking 7), centering 6, centering focus 6, ruthenium-coated diving suit with thermal damping. stealth's an open test, so i roll 13 dice and add 8 to the highest die.

of course, he's got 200 earned karma, so he oughtta be pretty good at what he does.

Sam Fisher .. no, Steve Zissou!

BTW, for open stealth tests what do you centre? Are there any penalties to negate?
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