 Double sprinting |
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 May 25 2007, 02:58 PM
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#1
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,920 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502  |
Just going through the rules a little.
Anyway are you allowed to do two sprinting actions as they only take simple actions. (i.e. if you have 2 initiative passes you could increase speed 4 times) |
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May 25 2007, 03:20 PM
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#2
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
I don't allow it, but there was a thread dealing with the RAW side of things earilier.
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May 25 2007, 03:38 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 8-November 04 Member No.: 6,817 |
I think this thread dealt with the subject to some degree.
My opinion is that allowing multiple sprinting actions lets characters become unrealistically fast. |
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May 25 2007, 04:48 PM
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#4
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
By pure RAW it appears as though you may take 2 sprint actions in a pass. However, in the spirit of the rules it may be more fair to allow only 1 sprint per pass OR 1 sprint per phase. Otherwise you become ludicrously fast (we've gone plaid!)
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May 25 2007, 10:52 PM
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#5
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Based on the differences in speed between non-human devices which are readily available in the Shadowrun world and the granularity of position in Shadowrun combat, it is absolutely essential that differences in speed between fast individuals and slow individuals be made unrealistically large.
Otherwise you don't get anything for being a very fast individual and noone bothers. If being fast can't push you past the jaws of a hellhound it's not worth anything - and in the meters and seconds world of Shadowrun combat that requires the differences in speed between characters to be unrealistically large. --- At the end of the day, Street Samurai are supposed to be able to run at freeway speeds and it is right that they do so. As a necessary consequence of high cybered characters being able to do that - unaugmented (but still highly trained) characters can beat olympic times by a few seconds. And honestly, I don't care. -Frank |
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May 26 2007, 01:51 AM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 588 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,316 |
Don't forget that there are rules for how long a character can sprint for before stopping and/or collapsing. They might be able to run as fast as a freight train, but they can only do it for a few turns after which they've gotta rest.
Besides, double sprinting keeps them from doing something like sprinting and firing a gun in the same ip |
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May 26 2007, 02:48 AM
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#7
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,920 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
Ok I can see double sprinting, because it's all at once.
And I can see both sides of having to keep sprinting to maintain speed in later passes.(I'd go with they don't have to). But how, mechanically, do you proposing adding together sprint rolls over different passes? In IP one speed is 40 in IP 2 it's 50 in IP 3 60 and then it's IP one again and they're back down to 40? Because you can't presume to know the outcome of later tests ahead of time. So the IP one speed has to assume they aren't going to have successes. That fits better with my idea of wired reflexes. They don't actually make you move much faster. It's that they slow your perception of time down and give you control so it's like you're playing a videogame on slow mo. While someone else is recovering from recoil and thying to re=acquire their target you've been watching the barrel lower after recoil and are ready to pull the trigger when it gets low enough. |
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May 26 2007, 03:06 AM
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#8
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Each simple action allows you to move a set number of additional meters during the action. It's extremely granular, but that's a necessary abstraction for a turn based game. -Frank |
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May 26 2007, 04:50 AM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 380 Joined: 19-May 07 Member No.: 11,698 |
Hey, while we are on the note of sprinting . . . what's the difference between running and walking, besides walking is slower? I was under the impression that one could take several free actions per turn, so what is the 'downside' of running instead of walking?
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May 26 2007, 07:30 AM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 163 Joined: 1-February 07 Member No.: 10,861 |
it adds a dice penalty, I believe. |
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May 26 2007, 07:39 AM
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#11
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
it's not a few seconds, for the love of mike. it's more than double the maximum human land speed ever recorded. even someone who is just a bit above average (4 Str, 4 Running) can run almost twice as fast as the fastest recorded human. nor is it necessary at all--if you disallow non-augmented characters from sprinting more than once per pass, the problem fixes itself. the simple fact is that sprinting rules were originally designed with the idea in mind that people would only be able to sprint once per phase. i know this because i designed them, or designed a parallel version of them at the same time the existing ones were being designed. you want to remove that limit for people with augmented initiative, that's fine--i'm all for it. removing it for people with unauged initiative is crazy. |
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May 26 2007, 03:51 PM
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#12
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
You need to lay off the hyperbole or the crack. An unaugmented human with a Strengthand Running of 4 (beyond "Professional Grade" by the way), can make two Sprinting checks a turn, rolling a total of 16 dice, and averaging 5.3 hits. That's an extra 10.7 meters per turn, for a total speed of 35.7 meters/combat phase. That works out to a 3.077 second 40 yard dash, which in turn is 1 second faster than a decent NFL time. But since Shadowrun does not take into account the .25 seconds that it takes a human to start running, that's really just .75 seconds faster than a good NFL time. And it's for someone who is slightly faster than most NFL players to begin with and it's 65 years from now using those standards. You really are making a mountain out of a molehill. Faster people really do have to move extra meters beyond the reach of slower people within the seconds that combat lasts or the granularity of movement will allow slower characters to continually catch up and attack. If that means that a fast 40 yard dash has gotten .75 seconds faster in the next 65 years, so be it. -Frank |
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May 26 2007, 04:28 PM
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#13
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yes, unless they blow edge for an extra IP, in which case they can spike to 26mph with a good roll (10 successes out of 16 dice). it's also worth pointing out that this guy, with far less than world-class abilities, is smashing the current 100m dash time by almost a second and a half on an average roll. and the world record 100m dash for an unaugmented human, in 2070, is going to be 5.66 seconds. yes, people do get faster as the decades pass, but this is ridiculous. a caveat: i dunno where i got that 46mph figure, in that other thread. maybe i mistyped 26, or something, but even the fastest human in 2070 can't spike to 46mph. they can spike to 39mph, but not 46.
i don't think we're using the same standards. most NFL players would have a minimum Str of 4, if i were to stat them in SR4, or 3 with a lot of Athletics dice. |
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May 26 2007, 05:55 PM
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#14
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
You may have got it from me in the "Most Dice You Can Roll Thread," but that was a troll adept that specialised in sprinting. I fully agree with Frank that the rules say you can double sprint or more. I also strongly feel that this was an oversight on the part of the developers. I have houseruled it to one sprint action per combat turn. The current world record for the 100m is 9.38 seconds according to Google. An unaugmented human who is very fit (strength 4) and a professional standard athlete (skill 4) will score an average of 3 hits (close enough). That's going to mean a speed of 31m per combat turn or 9.68 seconds for the 100m. Now the difference between Gold and unplaced at that level is measured in 1/10ths of a second. But even so, I feel that the system is fairly generous to people. This is after all someone who is neither specialised in sprinting, nor world class. With an exceptional roll, perhaps 5 hits, they'll break the world record. On the other hand, Shadowrunners are generally being shot at, so let's allow it. Broadly speaking, the existing rules produce figures that are surprisingly close to what sounds right in the real world. And as Frank says, the SR4 system doesn't have the granualarity to deal in 1/5th of a metre. And also as Frank says, times might be slightly faster in another sixty years (though there is good reason to think we're nearing the maximums for natural human ability in this area). However, throw in multiple sprints and things get worse. With two sprint actions, our very fit and well-trained athlete is now getting 5 hits and is routinely breaking the current 100m record and by over a second (he does it in 8.57 seconds). This is someone who is impressive, but is certainly not a specialist sprinter or world class. Not to mention that with a couple of good rolls, he can actually (9 hits) do the 100m in under seven seconds. That's about 51kmph, or 32mph. Do you really want fit people running at 32mph? Can you even imagine being overtaken by that person when you're walking to work and they go jogging past you? It would scare the willies out of you! :rotfl: So this to me is enough. We have a system that seems to successfully approximate the real world when you don't allow multiple sprints, and produces surreal effects when you do. So I allow one sprint action per turn which is what I believe is intended. As regards initiative enhancers, I see no reason why something that improved your reflexes would allow you to run an extra 12 or 24 metres in three seconds (3 hits per sprint action, 2 sprint actions per turn, 1 or 2 bonus initiative respectively). Even if you only allow one sprint action per initiative pass as MFB is suggesting, Wired Reflexes II brings the above individual up to a blistering 52kph or 32mph. One sprint per turn will give you a close approximation to the real world, with a small bias in favour of the character. If that appeals to you, then stick to it. If you want players running down people on motorbikes (remember the above is a non-specialist with at most, better than average rolls), then use multiple sprints. |
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May 26 2007, 06:42 PM
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#15
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
i would simply rule that any sprinting test cancels out the old one.
sucks rolling less then the old, but shit happens... |
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May 26 2007, 07:07 PM
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#16
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
That reminds me. There is also the issue of re-calculating how far someone has moved on the fly. If a character is moving 30m in a turn, then I can have a good idea where they are on each of their initiative passes. If they keep adding to it each simple action, I get into some bizarre anti-version of Xeno's paradox. The only manageable option is that they keep varying their speed as they run. I find that lacks aesthetic value to me and it makes it a bugger to work out who can intercept who! |
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May 26 2007, 07:57 PM
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#17
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
We just recalculate movement into meters per IP and tack any sprinting meters to the IP in which they are added.
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May 27 2007, 06:07 PM
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#18
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
...Aren't unaugmented any more? -Frank |
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May 27 2007, 06:17 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 403 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Kill Em All Member No.: 2,018 |
... are characters in Kung Fu Hustle? |
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May 27 2007, 06:40 PM
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#20
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
are you insane? i'm being serious. no, spending Edge is not 'augmentation'. it's not augmentation if you're using your natural abilities. you're seriously suggesting that someone can get lucky and run 40mph. i'm not sure how to counter that except to tell you to RTFM. take ten seconds out of your day and find anything, anywhere, that says humans can come even close to reaching 40mph on foot. hell, i'll settle for 30mph. |
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May 27 2007, 07:05 PM
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#21
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Adepts and Magicians have natural abilities. These abilities are defined as "Augmentation". Your definition makes no sense. -Frank |
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May 27 2007, 07:06 PM
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#22
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
no, they have magic, which is supernatural. edge is something every human is born with. let's be clear: are you positing that edge is some sort of supernatural phenomenon that humans didn't have before 2070?
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May 27 2007, 08:20 PM
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#23
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I'm positing that people who aren't named characters in Shadowrun use Group Edge and don't get to buy extra initiative passes (p. 274). If there's a bunch of people on the track, none of them is even allowed to buy an extra initiative pass, so what the fuck do you care? -Frank |
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May 27 2007, 08:30 PM
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#24
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you're avoiding questions, now? okay, i'll bite: there's no reason a PC couldn't be on that track. back to questions of substance--is or is not edge supernatural, in your opinion? if you can't answer a direct question like that, there's no point in discussing anything with you.
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May 27 2007, 08:50 PM
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#25
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
To the extent that Magic is "supernatural" then Edge is "supernatural" as well. It is unlikely and unexplainable events that happen in your favor. It's roughly analagous to Earthdawn Karma manipulation and in the ancient days it was considered magic. That people in 2070 do not consider it magic is a statement about what thaumaturgical science is like, more than it is a blanket statement about what is or is not magical. But really, "supernatural" is a non-sensical distinction, since the definition of "natural" actually does include spells, spirits, and adept powers. Seriously, if it exists, it's natural. -Frank |
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