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> Infusion Power, What's the limit?
Dizzman
post May 28 2007, 05:27 PM
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This might be a question for the FAQ. Is the level of the power you can add limited by the magic rating? In other words, if a character has improved ability (pistols) at 3 levels and a magic of 4, can he add another 2 levels of improved ability (pistols) with infusion? Any thoughts?
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Tarantula
post May 28 2007, 05:33 PM
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My street magic says each initiate grade permits a 0.5pp boost. So, if you're a Grade 4 initiate, then you can do a 2pp boost.
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FrankTrollman
post May 28 2007, 05:49 PM
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The question is actually whether the boosted power is still capped at a rating equal to your magic attribute. And the answer is that yes it is.

More importantly for this question though is that skill boosts are capped at +3, so there's no advantage to be had in boosting Improved Ability: Pistols if it is already at level 3.

However, if you for example had 3 points f Mystic Armor and a Magic of 4, then yes you would be capped at boosting it to 4.

-Frank
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Aaron
post May 28 2007, 07:41 PM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ May 28 2007, 12:49 PM)
The question is actually whether the boosted power is still capped at a rating equal to your magic attribute. And the answer is that yes it is.

More importantly for this question though is that skill boosts are capped at +3, so there's no advantage to be had in boosting Improved Ability: Pistols if it is already at level 3.

However, if you for example had 3 points f Mystic Armor and a Magic of 4, then yes you would be capped at boosting it to 4.

-Frank

Could you offer a source for that interpretation?

I can't find one that suggests what you're suggesting, although I do find in the description of Infusion that it can "enhance an existing power beyond its normal range" (SM p. 61), which appears to contradict your interpretation.
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pbangarth
post May 28 2007, 08:16 PM
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I too would like to know what "beyond its normal range" means if one is still subject to the limitations that define that normal range, such as the Magic rating.
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Synner
post May 28 2007, 11:11 PM
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Frank's interpretation is correct. The phrase "beyond its normal range" means in comparison with the "normal" level of that particular power, not to its potential maximum/cap. All infused Powers are still limited by Magic and/or augmented Attribute caps.
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Aaron
post May 28 2007, 11:36 PM
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Right, but where does it say that? Where is it written? I've got players that deserve to be given page references and not just a "these guys on Dumpshock said so." At least give me a reference that implies the ruling.
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pbangarth
post May 29 2007, 02:41 AM
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QUOTE (Synner @ May 28 2007, 07:11 PM)
Frank's interpretation is correct. The phrase "beyond its normal range" means in comparison with the "normal" level of that particular power, not to its potential maximum/cap. All infused Powers are still limited by Magic and/or augmented Attribute caps.

Ok, but I still don't know what you mean by 'normal', especially as you are using it to define 'normal'. How is the maximum level of an ability not normal?

So, if a character has Magic at 6, is Kinesics at level 5 'normal' and at level 6 not 'normal'? And if so, why? It doesn't make any sense.

And if what you say is true, then what possible purpose is there for this ability?

The one way I see you could argue that the ability is still meaningful despite these limitations is that one can apply extra Power Points anywhere across the spectrum of the character's abilities at will, which indeed is a useful tool. You could find precedent for that level of application in two other Metamagical techniques: Cognition (SM p. 55) and Somatic Control (SM p. 58), both of which allow Attributes to be redistributed at will, but never exceeding the augmented Attribute maximum. This would seem to support your position.

However, if you look at those two techniques carefully, they in fact supply support for saying Infusion (SM p. 61) should be treated differently and as a more powerful technique. First of all, it is an 'advanced' Metamagical technique, building on a lower level technique equal to the other two.

Second, and more importantly, the cost for Cognition and for Somatic Control is via Drain, which can range form negligible to quite dangerous. The cost for Infusion is a whonking big Drain always (for using "excessive levels of mana"), *plus* the temporary loss of Power Points equal to the gain of the use of Infusion. If the cost is bigger, the benefit should be commensurate.
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Ravor
post May 29 2007, 03:35 AM
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You know, I have to agree with pbangarth, I've always given Advanced Meta-Magic plenty of elbow room. Of course, I've always warned any Adepts to never, ever Glitch the Drain Roll on Infusion. :vegm:
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Synner
post May 29 2007, 08:11 AM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ May 29 2007, 02:41 AM)
QUOTE (Synner @ May 28 2007, 07:11 PM)
Frank's interpretation is correct. The phrase "beyond its normal range" means in comparison with the "normal" level of that particular power, not to its potential maximum/cap. All infused Powers are still limited by Magic and/or augmented Attribute caps.

Ok, but I still don't know what you mean by 'normal', especially as you are using it to define 'normal'. How is the maximum level of an ability not normal?

"Normal range" simply describes the full spectrum of levels a character could achieve in that particular power without breaking the Magic max - but doesn't, because he just bought it at level 1, 2 or 3 for instance.

ie. the "normal range" of Kinesics is between level 1 and 6, with Infusion a character could have bought it at 1 and could pump it up (to a max of 6). Same if someone picked up Mystic Armor or Attribute Boost at level 2 and needed to pump it up.

QUOTE
The one way I see you could argue that the ability is still meaningful despite these limitations is that one can apply extra Power Points anywhere across the spectrum of the character's abilities at will, which indeed is a useful tool.

That's pretty much it. For a cost you can boost your existing level in certain powers (if they aren't already maxed out).

QUOTE
You could find precedent for that level of application in two other Metamagical techniques:  Cognition (SM p. 55) and Somatic Control (SM p. 58), both of which allow Attributes to be redistributed at will, but never exceeding the augmented Attribute maximum.  This would seem to support your position.

However, if you look at those two techniques carefully, they in fact supply support for saying Infusion (SM p. 61) should be treated differently and as a more powerful technique.  First of all, it is an 'advanced' Metamagical technique, building on a lower level technique equal to the other two. 

Think of it this way. Cognition and Somatic Control ultimately only allow you to move around Att points meaning that while you're gaining a bonus in one area, you're losing it somewhere else. Infusion let's you increase the effective Power points devoted to a given power which is a considerably more powerful ability (given that with certain power load outs it can even effectively replicate part of what the other two do).

Granted if you've maxed out the levels in the powers that you possess, Infusion isn't as useful, but consider a character who has picked up one or two levels in Spell Resistence, Mystic Armor or Kinesics and uses Infusion at a critical moment to pump them up...
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pbangarth
post May 29 2007, 02:08 PM
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Upon further reflection, I finally see the temporary Power Point burnout as simply being the cost of the temporary Power Point boost, and balancing that boost for the same length of time. It doesn't have to mean anything about the level to which the boost can go.

What's left is that damn phrase "beyond its normal range".

So, Synner, let's look at your example. If the following is the case:

QUOTE
"Normal range" simply describes the full spectrum of levels a character could achieve in that particular power without breaking the Magic max - but doesn't, because he just bought it at level 1, 2 or 3 for instance.

ie. the "normal range" of Kinesics is between level 1 and 6, with Infusion a character could have bought it at 1 and could pump it up (to a max of 6). Same if someone picked up Mystic Armor or Attribute Boost at level 2 and needed to pump it up.


...then why is the technique description written as "beyond its normal range" rather than something like "beyond the current value up to the maximum allowed"? How can "beyond its normal range" not mean "over 6" in your example?

I agree with you that a farseeing character could buy a lot of different Powers at less than maximum and then develop the Infusion technique to be Mr. Versatility.

I can see certain Dumpshock contributors piping in with "MUNCHKIN" as soon as they saw that character build.

;)
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Synner
post May 29 2007, 05:06 PM
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QUOTE (pbangarth)
So, Synner, let's look at your example. If the following is the case:
QUOTE
"Normal range" simply describes the full spectrum of levels a character could achieve in that particular power without breaking the Magic max - but doesn't, because he just bought it at level 1, 2 or 3 for instance.
ie. the "normal range" of Kinesics is between level 1 and 6, with Infusion a character could have bought it at 1 and could pump it up (to a max of 6). Same if someone picked up Mystic Armor or Attribute Boost at level 2 and needed to pump it up.


...then why is the technique description written as "beyond its normal range" rather than something like "beyond the current value up to the maximum allowed"? How can "beyond its normal range" not mean "over 6" in your example?

Technically, Kinesics 3 reflects a level range from 1 to 3; the fact that there are few reasons not to use a given power at maximum level doesn't mean you couldn't use it at a lower level if you so chose (this might potentially be useful for powers that have Drain) - hence the use of "normal range".

QUOTE
I agree with you that a farseeing character could buy a lot of different Powers at less than maximum and then develop the Infusion technique to be Mr. Versatility.
I can see certain Dumpshock contributors piping in with "MUNCHKIN" as soon as they saw that character build.

At the cost of two initiations and given the prereq Metamagic I wouldn't really call it a cheap option, especially if you're forfeiting other metamagics or saving for Magic increase.
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pbangarth
post May 29 2007, 05:36 PM
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QUOTE (Synner)

Technically, Kinesics 3 reflects a level range from 1 to 3; the fact that there are few reasons not to use a given power at maximum level doesn't mean you couldn't use it at a lower level if you so chose (this might potentially be useful for powers that have Drain) - hence the use of "normal range".


Ahhhh. Now I understand. Thank you.

And yes, it isn't cheap.
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Aaron
post May 29 2007, 08:46 PM
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QUOTE (Synner)
Technically, Kinesics 3 reflects a level range from 1 to 3; the fact that there are few reasons not to use a given power at maximum level doesn't mean you couldn't use it at a lower level if you so chose (this might potentially be useful for powers that have Drain) - hence the use of "normal range".

I can understand the argument, but upon what is it based? Again, I've got players who deserve more than just "I got this info from Dumpshock, so it's obviously all good."
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Moon-Hawk
post May 29 2007, 08:49 PM
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QUOTE (Aaron)
QUOTE (Synner @ May 29 2007, 12:06 PM)
Technically, Kinesics 3 reflects a level range from 1 to 3; the fact that there are few reasons not to use a given power at maximum level doesn't mean you couldn't use it at a lower level if you so chose (this might potentially be useful for powers that have Drain) - hence the use of "normal range".

I can understand the argument, but upon what is it based? Again, I've got players who deserve more than just "I got this info from Dumpshock, so it's obviously all good."

How 'bout: "I'm the GM, and this is ambiguous enough to require a judgement call, so this is how we're going to do it. If you can find a clear and explicit statement to the contrary then we can revisit the issue."
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FrankTrollman
post May 29 2007, 09:02 PM
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QUOTE (Aaron)
QUOTE (Synner @ May 29 2007, 12:06 PM)
Technically, Kinesics 3 reflects a level range from 1 to 3; the fact that there are few reasons not to use a given power at maximum level doesn't mean you couldn't use it at a lower level if you so chose (this might potentially be useful for powers that have Drain) - hence the use of "normal range".

I can understand the argument, but upon what is it based? Again, I've got players who deserve more than just "I got this info from Dumpshock, so it's obviously all good."

How about: Peter Taylor who actually editted that paragraph in Street Magic says that was his reasoning for choosing that particular set of words to describe the ability.

That isn't just random Dumpshock people talking - Synner is Peter Taylor, the man who made the call to use the words "normal range" in the book to refer to the unboosted power. If he says that the words "normal range" was intended to distinguish it from something that would allow you to exceed the "power maximum" or "augmented maximum" then that does actually count for something.

I've argued with enough designers in my time to know that "Because the Designer said so!" isn't a perfect argument. But in this case the concept being put across is somewhat complex and the wording necessarily ambiguous. The ability allows you to exceed the limits of the power points you have invested, but it doesn't allow you to exceed any other limits (such as the maximum power points you could have invested, or the maximum power points your augmented maximums will allow you to benefit from). There is no simple English statement that unambiguously means that - but the wording in Street Magic comes about as close as possible.

-Frank
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Dizzman
post May 29 2007, 09:20 PM
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Thanks Frank and Synner. Considering it would be quite possible to have the power abused by going over the "maximum" limit, it might be a good candidate for the next FAQ. Is there a forum or email where you send this kind of stuff?
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Aaron
post May 29 2007, 11:33 PM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
How about: Peter Taylor who actually editted that paragraph in Street Magic says that was his reasoning for choosing that particular set of words to describe the ability.

That'll go over better, but will quash no grumbling. Books are kinda like kids; you get the book you published, not the book you wanted.

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
There is no simple English statement that unambiguously means that - but the wording in Street Magic comes about as close as possible.

How about replacing the words "beyond its normal range" with the words "up to its listed maximum or the adept's Magic"? It wouldn't even add inches to the column.
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