Calling the Gun Geeks: Tell me about Autofire Options

[Spike]

What is wrong with the way it's modeled in game?

Seriously, help me out. My expirences with autofire have not really provided me with the knowledge that I apparently need to see what is seriously broken. I recall scads of nonspecific complaints. There seems to be a general tendency to shrug and say 'yup, she's broke' and leave it at that.

I wish I had a specific beef to point to, but all I can recall is hearing/seeing people diss the rules in general at some point.

So, if you have a beef with Autofire and you know your guns tell me what it is, tell me how you'd do it.

[Moon-Hawk]

I hope I picked the right thread. ;-)

I think the biggest point of contention is that the recoil of the 10th bullet should not affect the probability of the first bullet hitting.

edit: Oh, and if you're posting anything and you get an error, 95% of the time it worked, even if you think it didn't. ;)

[Lagomorph]

another problem is that the gun fires as fast as the person can act. Guns have a set rate of fire, but in the game, a full auto street sam (IP3) shoots 30 bullets, yet full auto mage (IP1) would shoot only 10 bullets with the exact same gun in the same round.

Full auto mage. I like the sound of that, I think I have a new character..

[Caine Hazen]

[Spike]

Didn't realize it had posted. I got the white screen of error message doom.

I certainly hope to get a good gun thread out of this. :P

So far we just have a minor hiccup or two, from the tone of the memories of converstations/threads in teh past I got the feeling it was horrendously, horribly, totally and irrecoverably innaccurate... something I had a hard time reconciling with my memories of firing ye olde heavy machine gun back in the day.

[WearzManySkins]

Hmm I have seen a Shooter fire a single action revolver holding six shots in less than a second IRRC it may have been less than half a second, accurately. Yes he as fanning but the trigger was not tied back.

Me if I was doing the same, maybe 6 shots in two seconds with the same pistol type.

The shooter was/is firing twice as many shots as I could. Does that mean the auto fire rules are broken....no.

Look back at a tread I posted about a 2 barreled weapon I was asking about recoil...that type of weapon in Full Auto fires 20 round per IP, so technically with 3IP's 60 rounds could be fire, the recoil is another issue. :D

This is a game system, some things are abstracted to a degree. Most full single barreled auto weapons in todays world can fire more than 60 rounds a sec. Most of todays weapons can easily fire more than 100 rounds per second, but things like ammo capacity, and armies not wanting there troops to use so much ammunition have cut that back a bit.

If you like create a house rule that limits the number of rounds you can fire in a single IP. Bet remember the highest legal skill level is a 7.

I have and have used a RPG combat system "Phoenix Command", I have the earliest and most of the latest. It will give you what you seek and more. But combat will take a very long time, unless you are using laptops loaded with a program to generate the hits. Anytime I think a certain RPG's firearm combat is lacking something ie auto fire etc, I take down some of those books, reread thru them, then put them back, and figure the current system I "think" has issues, I figure out it really does not. :)

Remember no one really wants to spend half an hour just figuring out if they hit and where.

[deek]

I think the question here pertains more to why does the same pistol, using auto-fire (where the trigger is just depressed), allow someone with more IPs to fire more bullets.

I understand why someone depressing a trigger faster can shoot more, because they are indeed faster...but just holding down a trigger???

[sunnyside]

@Spike

The full auto rules are "wrong" in, well, most ways if you want to be picky.

Recoil and ROF are two. The damage done doesn't track what you would do if each shot were handled indavidually. And supressive fire is kind of a joke as you're guaranteed not to get killed by it. Often you can guarantee not taking physical damage. Also the bullets can't find you if you hold very still.


The question is what else to do? There are systems with more realistic full auto rules. They take forever to manage, and eventually the players start to groan whenever someone uses it.

At this level of abstraction they're generally considered close enough and play well on the table. Recoil happens and make you more likely to miss, more shots are more likely to kill someone, and you can at least fire at large groups of people.

The only thing I might tweak is ROF. I could see giving weapons a max ROF even a super sammie can't beat. (typically 30 rounds per 3 seconds)

And they always fire at that rate in supressive fire, and for every 10 rounds that go by you get another supressive fire test. You also roll even if the person is just standing there. I'd also roll as well if a person is dropping prone or diving for cover but I'd give a bonus.

[mfb]

the point of autofire is not, in general, to get lots of rounds to hit your target, it is to make sure your target gets hit by at least one round. unless you're talking about extreme ranges, autofire should pretty much always give you an increased chance to hit a single target.

if you're switching targets in the middle of a burst, yeah, recoil should affect you because you'll have a much harder time acquiring your target when your weapon is doing jumping jacks against your cheek--but even then, a lot of spraying can make up for a lack of aiming, at least at closer ranges. so, basically, the first attack you make with an autofire burst should not take recoil penalties, no matter how many rounds you're firing.

[Spike]

Mind you, I don't personally have a problem with the system as it stands. That's part of my point, I don't always get why people complain so much and I'm hoping to see why.

I've got Pheonix Command, and played it way back in the day, I had fun but I don't exactly want to recreate the expirence of spending all day resolving a five minute tactical senario (only ten seconds of which were actual combat) resulting in the deaths of three quarters of the PC's... though as it was a pure PvP senario that might not reflect the lethality of the system accurately. ;)


So far the biggest beef is interfacing Autofire with the 'enhanced human initiative', which is hard to argue from a realism standpoint I suspect :P .

Beef number two seems to be that immobile targets are more or less immune to suppressive fire? Not having my book handy, I have to guess that the chances of being hit by suppressive fire are based largely by how many meters you move through it? Minor tweak: make a flat chance to be hit by supressive fire based on how many IP's/rounds you are in the affected area?

Beef Three: when to apply recoil penalites? Accuracy over ranges? I'm not sure how to phrase it. Is there an existing rule for 'walking fire' to the target? I know that was my easy aiming solution when I was firing. Recoil I'm less familiar with. I know three round bursts from an assualt rifle were trivial when aiming (that burst anyway), and recoil from a tripod or ring mounted HMG is not a factor. Neither one seems to apply to the situations being discussed. :?

[Moon-Hawk]

[Lagomorph]

I think you got the summary of it very well.

Honestly, even though there are issues with it, none of my groups have changed anything with fire arms.

It's not really that bad, it does a decent job of resolving multiple bullets into one roll, and recoil does exist, though for pretty much all cases it will be a non-issue because of recoil comp items. If your group is heavily composed of gun fanatics, then some house rules would help them foaming at the mouth, but otherwise, it's probably the best area of the system that sucessfully mimics real life.

[WearzManySkins]

Spike,

Thanks I too recall the lethality of Phoenix Command, I did see one effect of its deadliness, my player characters tended to avoid combat it they could, if they could not, they pulled out all the stops on brain storming a way so they gave alot more than they received in combat. Also what they gave out in combat very focussed and lethal.

[Dashifen]

[kzt]

[Moon-Hawk]

[kzt]

[Big D]

There should be a big thread from last year with the suppressing fire debate. I believe the consensus from *most* (but not all--it got heated at times) was that anyone in the suppressed area could use up their next action to take cover, but would otherwise face an attack roll, along with anybody who attempted to enter, exit, or move within it.

[Moon-Hawk]

[mfb]

well, many common handgun rounds are bigger than many common rifle rounds, so it's fine that they do more boxes of damage, base--they make a bigger hole. rifle rounds are a lot faster (and pointier!) than handgun rounds; where they excel is in punching through barriers (like armor), going further, and deviating less. in SR4, i'd probably represent that by giving handguns a box more DV than most rifles, on average, and giving rifles more AP (3 points, minimum).

i'd probably also make it a complex action to ready a rifle. they're long and they're heavy; if you don't have it there in your hands, it's going to be a while before you can get it up into position. given SR's emphasis on speed, i think that would probably make handguns much, much preferred.

[WearzManySkins]

[Spike]

The problem with measureing joules of energy is that it doesn't seem to reflect lethality very much. There is a strong debate that the only factor of importance in any gunshot wound is wether or not it disrupts vital tissues. If a .44 magnum disrupts more tissue by virtue of being a bigger bullet, wound placement has a slightly larger margin of error.

Obviously penetration is an important consideration, but most larger caliber handgun rounds have more than acceptable penetration for the human body (12-15 inches).

Never mind that there are plenty of handgun hunters out there taking out large, dangerous game with...well... heavy pistols. Rifles have the range advantage.


As for the complex action: Not to agree or disagree, but that was to ready, not to shoot. I assume he meant that if it was already ready you fired as normal... that is simple actions.

Mind you, I spent two of the last four years carrying a rifle every where I went, so I can see where he is coming from as far as 'readying' goes...

[Narmio]

Continuing with the readying, perhaps a complex action to ready any larger-than-pistol weapon, with an Agility test (against a different threshold for SMGs (1-2?), ARs (2-3?), machine guns (3-4?), etc) possible to ready-and-fire in your first pass? That would encourage more people to carry SMGs and pistols in situations where they can't SWAT their way around weapons out.

Which in my mind is good.

[WearzManySkins]

Transferring the joules of the round, is to a degree dependent upon the technology of the bullets.

When I used to hunt, I typically loaded "Silver Tip" bullets, for that time superior wound enhancement for its time. Today there are better bullets.

The old Glaser rounds were/are very interesting wound enhancement technology.

When I was in the USN, I asked the Gunner's Mate why we did use the M-16, instead of the M-14 we were issued. His response, sharks are not impressed by an M-16. :D

Comparing SOTA hunting handguns, versus Standard Military issued rifles....is apples to oranges. Try comparing SOTA hunting handguns versus SOTA hunting rifles that is much better match of abilities.

For a SOTA military weapon, I much prefer the Israeli Tavor assault rifle.

Link here
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/sma...avor/Tavor.html

The IMF to me at least have more practical approach to weapons design, ie some of the designers may have to out and use what they design, unlike here in the USA.

Besides I could just just use a .44 magnum firing carbine. :D

[WearzManySkins]

Spike

As for carrying one every day for two years, you got me on that one.

But due the "rules of engagement" when I was in the USN, I was able to load/aim/fire my 45 in less than a sec. That was one reason why the USN and I had issues with regards to use of firearms. As for the M-14 and Mossberg Riot Shotgun I was a bit slower a little over a second.

Lets see only in 6 years, I drew/loaded/aimed and almost killed a Lt. Commander, USN Captain, and a Seaman recruit. This is three separate events also. Due to they were in the wrong place and time. Only my better judgment prevented me from killing those persons. Under the "Rules of Engagement" they were legally killable.

But I could had more opportunities, but for a large part of my service, issuing me any weapon was against Captain's Orders. :)

Which did not bother me the least, that way I did not have to be placed in situations where idiots were out for their Darwin Awards. :)

To those that serve today and over there, "Fair Winds and Following Seas Shipmate".