 Integral sound suppressor, hopefully a quick question |
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 Jun 1 2007, 08:02 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 375 Joined: 15-November 06 From: Salem, Dwarven Hell (Tir Tairngier) Member No.: 9,865  |
I checked back three of four pages in two different searches and couldn't find anything.
Are integral suppressors like on the Smartgun X subject to the 300 round life expectancy that the suppressor accessory is? If so are they replaceable or is the gun essentially insuppressible at that point. Also is your answer RAW that I couldn't find or a common houserule? |
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Jun 1 2007, 08:13 AM
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#2
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Real world, really well built suppressors will outlive the barrel of an automatic weapon. Surefire has a piece where they shoot out 5 or so M4 barrels using the same (glowing red hot) suppressor firing as fast as they can. Many silencers have wipes and other parts that need to be replaced. But I don't think the body actually wears out and needs to be thrown away.
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Jun 1 2007, 09:35 AM
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#3
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Wipe style suppressors are obsolete and are not really used by anyone anymore. Modern suppressors are good for several thousand rounds
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Jun 1 2007, 04:26 PM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Oh, and don't think suppressors are that good. A -2 to hear the gunfire should be sufficent penalty.
Hollywood still tends to overrate the effectiveness of silencers and suppressors, even in Prison Break someone fires a silenced pistol in a room and one of the people in the next room barely hears the sound of the spent casing hitting the floor.... yeah right! Silenced weapons are loud still. |
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Jun 1 2007, 04:28 PM
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#5
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
You might be surprised at how quiet a silenced subsonic round can be.
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Jun 1 2007, 05:27 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
Real world doesn't matter, SR SHOULD follow hollywood rules on silencers |
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Jun 1 2007, 06:08 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 748 Joined: 22-April 07 From: Vermont Member No.: 11,507 |
A silencer and a suppressor are not quite the same thing. The former combined with subsonic ammunition, and firing from a closed bolt is silent. The latter is much more common, and simply reduces the volume of the firing weapon.
The "silencer" in SR4 seems to be more of a suppressor. I think it would be more confusing than helpful to now try and differentiate different types of silencers/suppressors, so... For those desiring uber-stealth I would would make available: Sub-Sonic Ammunition This ammunition does not create a small sonic boom when fired. As a result, it applies a –4 dice pool modifier on all Perception Tests to notice the weapon’s use or locate the weapon’s firer. This modifier stacks with the modifier for using a silencer. (–1 damage, +1 AP, 8R, 50¥) I went with R, because while it might be suspicious on the street, it has a valuable use at target ranges in keeping the neighbors happy. |
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Jun 1 2007, 06:17 PM
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#8
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
To each their own. Although I might not be a huge fan of making Shadowrun line up with Real World Physics, I've even more revoted by twisting it to Hollywood Physics. *Edit* Alsom to answer the OP's question, personally at the moment I assume that internal silencer's are good for the life of the weapon although I'm toying with the idea of charging a monthly 'Maintance' Fee ala Lifestyle to cover for the costs the Runners surely have in keeping their gear in full working order and SOTA. However, it's low priority for me right now because I figure that 'I'll be able to pull it out of my ARSE' when it is finally released... :cyber: |
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Jun 1 2007, 07:33 PM
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#9
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Consider that they should each be monthly firing a few hundred rounds using pistols or rifles, and a thousand+ using MGs or SMGs to maintain (much less improve) their skills. |
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Jun 1 2007, 08:20 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
I don't think I would decrease the damage, I do agree with the +AP. Maybe you could get rid of the -1 damage reduce and change the AP to +2 or +3. The AP and damage modifiers would also be variable depending on the muzzle velocity of the bullets. For instance, a SMG with a muzzle velocity of 1476 fps would not be as severely hampered as a Rifle with a muzzle velocity of 2800 fps. I do not know enough about the muzzle velocity of the guns in SR4, and how they differ in each gun. Subsonic rounds would be anything below 1100 fps (feet-per-second), in normal weather conditions. We would also have to reduce the effective range of the gun as well, in some cases it would actually half the effective range. I have a question that is pertinent to this discussion, what is the muzzle velocity of most pistols, most smg's, most rifles, most hmg's, most sniper rifles, etc? In regards to SR4, would the muzzle velocity of the real-life guns match the muzzle velocities of the guns in SR4? EDIT: One last thing, if I am correct, most pistols would not even need subsonic ammo, as their muzzle velocity is already subsonic. Is this correct? Does that mean if we introduce the idea of subsonic ammo into SR4 that all pistols should get this same -4 perception bonus? |
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Jun 1 2007, 09:01 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 375 Joined: 15-November 06 From: Salem, Dwarven Hell (Tir Tairngier) Member No.: 9,865 |
Well, this is for a "Down in the Gutter" ganger character. The gun is more for emergencies than a once a week run. I actually see it being used for the occasional driveby more than anything.
Having a suppressor is just ok in that I don't really care if everyone hears a gun go off in the barrens but if I have it do I need to replace it with a 12F aftermarket suppressor which might take a long time to get or is it good "forever". |
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Jun 1 2007, 09:07 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
this made me wonder where is a suppressor for a fubuki?
the bbarrel/integral is the clip...but then can you attach an after market supressor? |
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Jun 2 2007, 02:03 AM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226 |
Having it take only a combat pass to attach or remove a silencer, just does not sit right with me. |
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Jun 2 2007, 02:10 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226 |
Might suggest reducing the range catagory to the next type as well. |
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Jun 2 2007, 02:27 AM
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#15
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
It's fairly accurate with some suppressors. If you have to unscrew retaining nuts,etc it's totally bogus. A decent article (though remember it is marketing) on suppressors is Surefire's "SUPPRESSOR SCIENCE " They have a lot more on their site. Despite what they say, other people do make pretty good suppressors and silencers. I've been told that their "no point of aim change" was something original, most manufactures apparently just suggested just not removing the suppressor after you zeroed. |
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Jun 2 2007, 04:11 AM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Sorry, I don't do Shadowrun D20. SR doesen't have to be realistic, but believable. Silencers and suppressors as undetectable weapons with no drawbacks at all doesen't sit well with me. A true silenced pistol (like the MK-22 navy) with locked slide and subsonic ammo is good for stealthy shooting, but even so the clack of hammer and the sound of the bullet will still be there. The main advantage is that most people won't realize a gun has been fired even if they heard the shot. Supressors is mostly made to make it difficult for the enemy to pinpoint your position, not to avoid hearing you shoot at all. |
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Jun 2 2007, 10:02 AM
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#17
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Speed of sound is roughly 1100 fps / 340 m/s The muzzle velocity of most 'normal' pistols is somewhere around the speed of sound. As a sample, .45 and come .40, .38 spl, and 9mm loads are subsonic. .357, .44. 10mm. most 9mm loads, etc are supersonic. Typical pistol round speeds 800-1300 fps / 250-370 m/s Pistol rounds fired from sub-machine guns are almost invariably supersonic, due to the longer barrel of the SMG giving them another 100 fps/30 m/s in velocity. Expect velocities in the range of 1000-1400 fps / 310-430 m/s For rifle rounds fired from very compact carbines/smgs the rounds will be going much faster, around 1300-1800 fps / 400-550 m/s For military rifles, bullet velocity goes from around 2600-3100 fps / 800-950 m/s with the lower velocity range comming out of rifles with shorter barrels / carbines. For sniper and anti-material rifles, they will typically have velocities around 850-1000 m/s. The anti material rifles just throw a much larger projectile. Maximum projectile velocity is determined by the gas expansion rate of the explosive used to fire the projectile, the maximum speed for an explosive driven projectiles is somewhere around 2000-2500 m/s. Of course, the 'practical' maximum velocity is considerably smaller. |
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Jun 2 2007, 06:14 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
Just to give an example of bullet speeds aside from smallarms: A 105mm APFSDS-T round fired from the L7 cannon of a Leopard 1A5 battle tank has a muzzle velocity of ~1450 m/s or ~4760 fps - 4.2 times the speed of sound. |
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Jun 3 2007, 06:46 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 375 Joined: 15-November 06 From: Salem, Dwarven Hell (Tir Tairngier) Member No.: 9,865 |
So by RAW the integral suppressor does or does not have the 300 round life span of the accessory suppressor?
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Jun 3 2007, 12:13 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
Suppressors actually do a great job at reducing firearm sound. Many people just don't realize how loud firearms really are. Even phrases like "The only sound you hear is that of the action cycling" is a little misleading. When you read "action cycling" think "one big piece of metal hitting another big piece of metal really hard."
A quality suppressor can reduce the peak sound volume by 30dB. This is enough to turn "painfully, stunningly, your ears making disturbing whistling noises afterwards, loud" into just "loud". It also makes the gunshot sound less like a gunshot, and more like someone dropping something onto a bare floor. Suppressor manufacturers today (2007) are developing technology where sound from one part of the silencer partially cancels out sound from another part of the silencer. I think in 2070, this will give rise to smart silencers that can adjust themselves on the fly to optimise for ambient weather conditions. This might give you a 40 or even 50 dB suppressor. I'll second KZT's link to the Surefire site. It's a good intro to suppressors. |
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Jun 3 2007, 06:31 PM
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#21
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
The book doesn't say. I'd say the 300 round lifetime is BS and I'd ignore it. |
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Jun 4 2007, 12:25 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 375 Joined: 15-November 06 From: Salem, Dwarven Hell (Tir Tairngier) Member No.: 9,865 |
Ok, stupid, no make sense, fluff mechanic is considered ignored. With the original question out of the way then I'll leave you guys to your suppressor effectiveness debate.
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Jun 4 2007, 01:40 AM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
I personally would ignore the unintegral 300 round life span as well. EDIT: One more thing, I about fell out of my chair when I read the words "cool science". Who the heck does marketing for these people? |
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Jun 4 2007, 02:54 PM
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#24
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Creating a god with his own hands Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 |
QFT You guys have to remember, you need to add 40 years to SOTA in order to get where SR is at. |
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Jun 4 2007, 03:20 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
Except this isn't an absolute rule in SR, some of this alleged future tech in SR is more like slightly improved, if at all, modern tech. This is most especially the case with guns. Think of how much has improved with guns from WW2 and now. Technological progress seems to be moving even faster(could just be me, or my limited POV), so unless it hits a wall, I think we would see more change by 2070. So yeah I guess I agree with you in terms of where I think SR should be in 2070, but then again I disagree in terms of where SR actually is in 2070. |
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