 Magic Bullets!, Shotgun kills Big Bad Evil Spirit! |
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 Jun 2 2007, 10:18 PM
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#1
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669  |
OK, this is pretty cheesy, but hear me out.
You need a Magician following a Possession Tradition with some Enchanting. Prepare the bullets as vessels with Enchanting. Handmade bullets will be best, but will require the Armorer skill and likely restrict you to standard ammuntion. Now you have potential 'magic bullets'. Prior to use, you will neeed to summon Watchers. Don't worry about much of a duration - 2 hours should often be far more than you'll need. Have your Watchers use Possession to enter the specially prepared bullets. The Watchers have 8 dice ([Force 1] x 2 +6 = 8) and need to get 3 hits for most ammuntion, or 2 if you used handmade rounds (in which caser, just buy the two hits and be happy). Now you have dual natured bullets. According to Street Magic, such dual natured weapons inflict normal damage (optionally, Force/2 for items not typically used as weapons, but this won't be the case) to Astral targets, and they'll cut right through Immunity to Normal Weapons in any case. Best part... the Magician can hand the bullets to his totally mundane friend and let him 'pack heavy' against spirits while the Magician relies on other ways to deal with them. So, legal? BTW, this first occured to me as something to do with arrows fired from a troll's bow. |
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Jun 2 2007, 10:26 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Iraq Member No.: 1,789 |
No, not legal or possible. If it was that easy then it would have cropped up in canon use by now.
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Jun 2 2007, 10:34 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 215 Joined: 18-May 04 Member No.: 6,336 |
*shrug* isn't 'anti-spirit' the purpose for rocksalt ammo?
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Jun 2 2007, 10:38 PM
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#4
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Tell me why it is not legal or possible.
This is a cop-out. Use the RAW to show me why this is not legal/possible. Just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't be. |
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Jun 2 2007, 11:09 PM
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#5
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
because
and
note that they can manifest, but not *materialize*
as they have no materialize power, you cannot replace that power with the possession power. therefore, watcher spirits cannot (in SR4) possess a bullet. that being said, i'd let you do it with a regular spirit. it's a terrible deal though: you can either have the spirit possess the bullet (a service) and be shot at the enemy (effectively engaging in a single instance of astral combat), dealing damage once... or you can have the spirit attack the enemy until one of them dies or is disrupted. not a very hard choice, is it? |
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Jun 2 2007, 11:28 PM
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#6
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
Does the "killed by a thousand bee stings" tactic still works? As in, send in a whole bunch of watchers and use friends in melee rules to help them survive and do damage.
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Jun 2 2007, 11:30 PM
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#7
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Ah, yes. I was assuming the use of the following optional rule from Street Magic:
Without this optional rule, you can still do it with 'normal' summoned spirits - as you pointed out, and it can actually be a very effective use of a low Force Spirit. A Force 1 Spirit that can possess an arrow or shotgun shell can provide a very effective way for mundanes to engage Spirits. |
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Jun 2 2007, 11:56 PM
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#8
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
regardless of what it is possessing, one astral/dual natured entity attacking another astral/dual natured energy via the astral plane already has a game mechanic: astral combat.
what i would allow is an anchoring focus of some sort (possibly the casing of a bullet, which you could repack) which triggers when the bullet is fired, and attacks the target of the bullet with some sort of spell (the focus is dual natured, after all, and exists on the astral...) but that's just a thought :P [edit] hmmm... you appear to be right about using them as bullets... personally, i'd use force /2 (round up) as the damage code instead of standard for the object... velocity is different on the astral, everything travels at supersonic speeds. still, at least it's something, and it could be staged up. [/edit] This post has been edited by Jaid: Jun 3 2007, 12:39 AM |
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Jun 3 2007, 01:54 AM
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#9
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
That might be best against an astral target, but against a dual natured target - such as a materialized Spirit - you're just going to use the bullet's DV and enjoy the fact that you can safely ignore the Immunity to Normal Weapons. |
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Jun 3 2007, 02:00 AM
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#10
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Can I get a page number that says possessed weapons bypass immunity to normal weapons with their own damage code?
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Jun 3 2007, 02:04 AM
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#11
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Street Magic, page 87.
Also, look at this.
Anything that can damage an astral form - in this case the effect of a 'critter power' - certainly would be considered magical. |
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Jun 3 2007, 02:21 AM
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#12
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Okay. Using weapons against astral forms requires the Astral Combat skill, which is a type of melee combat. One cannot justifiably use ranged weapons with the Astral Combat skill and ranged skills cannot be used in Astral Combat. So, one cannot use dual-natured bullets against purely astral forms.
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Jun 3 2007, 02:39 AM
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#13
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you would not have magical ammunition. you would have a delivery system for making attacks with low-force spirits. the astral plane does not have the same physics as the physical plane--just because two astral entities run into each other at high speed does not mean one of them is going to get hurt. shooting an astral spirit with a bullet that's got another spirit inside it will, at best, allow the spirit in the bullet to make a single attack as it bounces off the spirit you shoot with it.
edit: blah, i see that's another thing they've semi-changed. i'd still go with f/2, at best, a) because of the physics thing and b) because it really is pretty cheesy. |
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Jun 3 2007, 03:13 AM
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#14
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
That is not entirely correct, and is quite misleading in this case. If the attacker is astral then they need Astral Combat, but a physical attacker - including a dual natured attacker - can and does still use standard attack Attribute + Skill combinations (Agility + Longarms in the case of a Spirit-possessed shotgun slug). This is also how an attack with a Weapon Foci is resolved if a physical attacker is fighting a Spirit, or how a dual natured creature fights with its natural weapons. |
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Jun 3 2007, 03:16 AM
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#15
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
That is one of the listed options, but they also give another - presumably to be used in situations where the object is already given a DV. Like I said, I'd be all for an astral target ony taking F/2, but a manifest Spirit would be hit by the bullet and take the weapon's DV while the 'magic' of the bullet (Magic = Force) would knock down the Immunity to Normal Weapons and allow the bullet a real chance to inflict harm upon the Spirit. |
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Jun 3 2007, 03:29 AM
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#16
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
And hitting something upside the head isn't a critter power. It won't bypass immunity to normal weapons any more than a physical punch from an astrally perceiving mage would. |
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Jun 3 2007, 05:44 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
I had a PC that was a Gunslinger Adept. He had adept skill in pistols. He also had basically a ranged killing hands adept power with a limitation that he had to use a set of old Colt 45s that belonged to his grandfather. They were not really foci but he thought that they were. He thought that the guns were what was magical. Basically he could hit spirits with the guns at the ranged killing hands attack range only. It made it short range but a cool effect.
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Jun 3 2007, 10:01 AM
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#18
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
OK, fair enough with the Astral Combat thing, but it's still meaningless in 90% of what I'm trying to do - kill manifested Spirits (along with other creatures with Immunity to Normal Weapons) with a ranged weapon attack.
OK, let's get technical. Natural Weapon quite clearly is a critter power. As a critter power, it is listed as ignoring Immunity to Natural Weapons. Guardian and Beast Spirits can gain Natural Weapon and Possession of objects still allows full use of all powers. Now if you 'fastball special' that possessed object it should retain the ability to be a magic weapon. |
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Jun 3 2007, 12:23 PM
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#19
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Mystery Archaeologist Group: Members Posts: 2,906 Joined: 19-September 05 From: The apple tree Member No.: 7,760 |
I'd possibly allow this but would try to remember that the bullet is going to be heavily damaged when it hits, hell when its fired. This will hurt the watcher in the bullet, and to my mind counts as an abuse of the spirit. So sure you can have magic bullets but all your spirits use edge to resist summoning and binding, have a nice day.
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Jun 3 2007, 12:50 PM
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#20
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
I think it's a clever idea. Of course, I think since the bullets are not being wielded by the magician, but rather thrown at high velocity, it's the watcher making the attack, and not the magician or the gun. But still clever.
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Jun 3 2007, 02:31 PM
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#21
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
heh, i keep envisioning the dum dum bullets from "who framed roger rabbit" ;)
or maybe this: http://pc.gamespy.com/articles/630/630874p1.html http://pc.gamespy.com/articles/602/602035p1.html |
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Jun 3 2007, 03:50 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
well it's either that, or disrupt a spirit in one go with a narrow full auto burst, preferably with apds or ex-ex.
I think that magic bullets are probably against the flavor of the game, but nearly required to help even out the mages-can-never-be-countered aspect. |
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Jun 3 2007, 04:28 PM
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#23
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
problem is that yet again magic is needed to counter magic...
as in, in the long run there is nothing mundane that can match magic... |
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Jun 3 2007, 04:46 PM
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#24
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
Rating 2 Wired Reflexes: 30,000¥
Rating 2 Muscle Replacement: 10,000¥ Smartlink, Ingram Smartgun, and a full clip of APDS: 1,874¥ Geeking the Mage: Priceless |
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Jun 3 2007, 05:35 PM
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#25
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Shooting Target Group: Retired Admins Posts: 1,784 Joined: 28-July 04 From: Cleveland, OH Member No.: 6,522 |
Don't forget:
So, most mages aren't going to be able to provide even a full clip of these, assuming the GM allows it. It's a neat trick, but if the gun is firing bursts or FA, you're going to run out of such spirits awfully quickly. |
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