 Magic Bullets!, Shotgun kills Big Bad Evil Spirit! |
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 Jun 3 2007, 06:06 PM
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#26
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Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445  |
I see an Elf Shaman with a Ruger Warhawk doing this at chargen easily.
It doesnt seem too overpowered (right now) and seems like an interesting use of magic and dumb (not computerized) technology, perfectly up the alley of some magi-tech corp R&D. |
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Jun 3 2007, 06:38 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 29-October 05 Member No.: 7,908 |
Even if a bullet is possessed, or is the focal point of some kind of mana warp or taint, I still fail to see why it should bypass immunity to normal weapons. I think it relies on gross assumptions with regard to the interaction of "physics" between the astral and material plane. F=MxA as we understand it simply isn't relevant when the astral plane and material plane interact.
All the gunpowder doing is propelling a dual natured something (at high speed) into another dual natured something. Thus there are two means of conflict resolution. The first is for astral combat, and the second is for physical combat. I don't believe astral combat is supported here because astral combat isn't initiated when two entities merely come into contact. As for physical combat immunity to normal weapon rules are well defined for bullets. While I understand the desire for anti-spirit bullets, SR has a very strong history which explicitly states that magical bullets, arrows, etc... have never been possible. But not all hope is lost. There are a variety of mundane ways to deal with high rating spirits. Burst or full auto stick-n-shock is more than sufficient for most GMs, and more than sufficient for most spirits. (I know of some GM's that rule that taser effects don't apply to spirits.) There may be room for a counter-argument, but you would need to step outside of Shadowrun and reach into Earthdawn lore. In Earthdawn adepts could produce magical arrows, and mages could "teleport" through netherwalking. However it would be a stretch, and it would really vary based on the GM. As it is, I haven't read any material which supports the idea of using a possessed bullet or crossbow bolt as a weapon which bypasses immunity to normal weapons. And even if it did I'd be inclined to say that it was only as powerful as the possessing spirit, and completely ignore the properties of the bullet/gun. When it is all said and done, just go with what is good for the GM, the players, and the game. Screw dumpshock. =) This post has been edited by Red: Jun 3 2007, 06:41 PM |
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Jun 3 2007, 06:46 PM
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#28
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Let's back up a moment here and check our sanity. A manifest spirit cannot be attacked physically, at all, and does not possess Immunity to Normal Weapons (p.184, SR4). A materialized spirit can be attacked physically and does possess Immunity to Normal Weapons (p.289, SR4). Now let me take a moment to explain why dual-natured bullets wouldn't work. Possessed object vessels can be used to attack astral forms-and here they have an advantage over, say, a dagger enchanted as a power focus which cannot be used this way-following the rules for Astral Combat. A bullet, however, is not a weapon: it is ammunition. To use a bullet as a weapon you'd have to go up and hit the astral form with it. Even if you are astrally perceiving, you can't hit purely astral targets with your dual-natured bullets, because astral combat uses the Astral Combat Skill and using firearms requires the requisite Combat Active Skill (Automatics, Exotic Ranged Weapon, Heavy weapons, Longarms, or Pistols). You could hit a dual-natured critter or materialized spirit with it, but the bullet would not bypass the Immunity to Normal Weapons because you would be attacking the spirit or critter solely on the physical plane (the only plane you could use your Combat Active Skill). To illustrate this point, let us assume an adept and a materialized spirit are in combat. The adept, who is astrally perceiving, can choose to attack the spirit five ways: a straightforward physical attack (which does not bypass the spirit's Immunity to Normal Weapons) using a Combat Active Skill, a physical Attack of Will (p.94, SM, which does bypass Immunity to Normal Weapons) using a Combat Active Skill, a straightforward Astral Combat attack (bypass by going through the Astral) using the Astral Combat Skill, an astral Attack of Will (bypassing by going through the Astral /and/ being an Attack of Will), and a straightforward physical attack using a weapon focus, killing hands, or another adept power (bypass). It should be evident that the adept must choose how to attack the spirit, and the way he attacks determines whether or not he bypasses the Immunity to Normal Weapons. An unarmed, dual-natured adept could only bypass damage reduction by attacking through the Astral. As stated previously, you cannot use firearms in astral combat, so dual-natured bullets are, to all intents and purposes, only as useful as regular ammunition, because you can only attack with them at range on the physical. |
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Jun 3 2007, 08:27 PM
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#29
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
This is why it's best used with shotguns, sniper rifles, and bows. |
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Jun 3 2007, 08:39 PM
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#30
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
OK.
Oops. You're right. I said manifested when I should have said materialized. My intention should have been obvious.
OK.
OK.
A bullet is still an object, and it is an object imparted with a DV when it is fired. No where is it written that an object possessed must be used as a melee weapoin/attack.
There could be an argument here, but I'm not really interested in affecting astral targets so much as dual natured targets, so I'm going to skip this for now.
Wrong. You attack with the object. The object is dual natured. It will ignore the Immunity just as ranged Natural Weapons would (yeah, look it up Natural Weapons can be ranged and would ignore ItNW as well).
Using this reasoning, the bullet should still be capable of doing Force/2 (round up) since that is one of its options - the one that seems most 'astral' of the two given. However, it could also be ruled that Possessed items fall into the smae category as Natural Weapons, Weapon Foci, and Killing Hands - allowing full weapon damage against such targets and bypassing their ItNW. The section on Possession with items is not well defined, but such a ruling is certaily possible.
Ahem, Killing Hands without using Astral Combat? Argument that Possessed objects can act in a similar manner...
Again, the RAW is not really specific on this. It could be ruled either way. My approach is no less valid than yours. |
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Jun 3 2007, 09:11 PM
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#31
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
Wouldn't that be 1? |
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Jun 3 2007, 09:19 PM
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#32
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
It /is/ however, specifically stated that no known ranged weapon works in astral combat.
Incorrect. If an unarmed but dual-natured critter attacks another dual-natured critter, it has to decide to attack on either the astral or the physical, and the nature of the choice can decide whether the attack is magical or not.
Aside from the fact that you completely ignored the example-I don't even know why you quoted it-as stated, you would need to attack a subject astrally with the bullet, which you cannot do because the astral combat rules don't allow you to use firearms on the Astral.
The given example was for subject /not/ using Killing Hands or the equivalent, because an unarmed dual-natured metahuman is the closest canon example to a dual-natured non-weapon focus weapon.
Except that the rules very specifically state no known ranged weapon-which would include firearms-can be used in astral combat. |
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Jun 3 2007, 09:53 PM
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#33
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
You very clearly noted that a possessed object does not follow the usual rules for a dual natured object (you used the power focus in the form of a dagger). I would say that your equating it back to a 'normal' dual nature is an error on your part.
This is not necessary with either Killing Hands, Weapon Foci, or Natural Weapons. I contend that an attack with a possessed object falls into the same ruleset as those attack forms.
I'll make this plain. It isn't astral combat. It's normal combat with a weapon that is effectively magical - much like Killing Hands, Weapon Foci, and Natural Weapons.
As above - this is not astral combat it is a way to bypass Immunityto Normal Weapons. Besides that, the key word is 'known'. Your line of thinking comes from SR4's BBB - which has been supplimented by Street Magic. Street Magic allows some strange shit that you couldn't do before it came out. Such techniqes were not 'known' at the time. Of course, a critter can have Natual Weapons as a ranged attack (using the Exotic Ranged Weapon skill), and as a critter power it will ignore ItNW. It's quite possible that other ways to create such oddities - including my 'magic bullet' plan - can likewise bypass ItNW. |
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Jun 3 2007, 10:05 PM
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#34
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
With a watcher it might be damged, but with more powerful spirits, your bullet is going to be very difficult to damage (add the Force to it's 'Body' or whatever it uses to resist damage + ItNW). As for the 'screw the player' bit. Well, to each their own style. I woudn't do it like that, and my players would probably thank me for not being a dick. |
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Jun 3 2007, 10:09 PM
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#35
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Thank you. I would argue that the Spirit is incapable of movement when in possession of an object. As a bullet, it is being directed by the skill of the shooter. BTW, while I will be allowing this as a possibility in my game, I will not be using the optional rule that grants Possession to Watchers. This means that it will have to be done with full-on summoned Spirits, so the payoff is considerable lessened. |
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Jun 3 2007, 10:13 PM
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#36
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Shooting Target Group: Retired Admins Posts: 1,784 Joined: 28-July 04 From: Cleveland, OH Member No.: 6,522 |
Going back to the most basic aspect of this, your first line of your first post was
So, let's accept for the moment that this is rules-lawyering. If that's the case, it really doesn't matter what other GMs have to say here. It only matters how you want to handle it in your home campaign. If that's the case, then the next question is -- does it fit the fluff of the game world? Grabbing SM, these are the listed Possession traditions: Qabbalism, Witchcraft, and Voodoo. Then, you need to look and see if it's appropriate for any of these traditions to do this. Case by case: A Qabbalist? Absolutely not. They use golems, and they're not exactly into modern innovations. This would be completely out of character. Witches? No, they're into the natural world. They, again, are focused on traditional mechanisms of magic. Possessing a bullet would be completely out of character for them. Voudoun? If it's not a body, they're really not likely to possess it. So, where's that leave it? Well, it doesn't seem to fit the game world and if it fit's the rules it's only through extensive rules lawyering. Sounds to me like it's something you're welcome to do in your own campaign, but not something you should expect a lot of people to be accepting as a legitimate or appropriate game mechanic. |
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Jun 3 2007, 10:18 PM
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#37
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
True. But now the mundane can sport a trusty one-shot provided by his buddy. Just place the (non-Watcher) bound Spirit on Remote Service and give it orders to destroy whatever it is fired against by leaving it's object after it is used. You could have it reenter the object afte the battle if you have sufficient services. |
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Jun 3 2007, 10:19 PM
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#38
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
The sum of your obtuse argument is based on the assumption that the bullet, by virtue of being possessed, counts as a "magical weapon" for purposes of bypassing Immunity to Normal Weapons. This has been proven to not be the case, because it does not fall under the guidelines in the definition of the Immunity power given for a magical weapon. The text is very clear on this point:
An enchanted bullet of the type you describe is not a weapon focus, nor a spell, nor an adept power, nor is it a critter power. It is a magical good that is subject to the Possession power of the spirit, but that power is applied to the object and not the entity with Immunity to Normal Weapons. You're trying hard to make something that almost works, but it doesn't quite. Not without twisting the rules. |
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Jun 3 2007, 10:22 PM
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#39
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Your stereotyping of the traditions mentioned shows short-sightedness, but it's really quite pointless since you can freely create your own traditions - including Possession traditions - and it wouldn't be hard to make a Chaos Magic variant that possesses technological items with spirits rather than using Materializing Spirits. |
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Jun 3 2007, 10:28 PM
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#40
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
That's right. Now you're catching on.
ItNW was written before Possession existed. I argue that possessed objects should be added to that list. This would not be the first time that something new has forced a revision of soething that came before. Also, I contend that it's not my argumet that's obtuse, just you. Look for possibilities, not just ways to say 'no' to everything. |
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Jun 3 2007, 10:33 PM
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#41
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Take it from an old hand that's used to taking the rules to the limit. The rules don't hold on this one. Not quite. If you have to change or amend the rules to make it work, then it doesn't work. Maybe someday there'll be a FAQ or a bit of errata that'll tidy it up, but as it stands your enchanted bullet doesn't meet the requirements to bypass Immunity to Normal Weapons.
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Jun 3 2007, 10:37 PM
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#42
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Do whatever you like with your 'old hand' when I'm not around, but I'm not buying your smugness. You say I'm wrong, I say you're wrong, but I've been around gaming - and Shadowrun - long enough to know that what's written has a lot of wiggle room. Playing it like D&D 3.5 is a mistake because the rules will never be so complete (and hopelessly cumbersome).
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Jun 3 2007, 10:40 PM
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#43
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
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Jun 3 2007, 10:44 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 941 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,765 |
Wait: I need a clarification. You guys have been going on and on about dual nature vs. dual natured attacks... both in example and counter example.
Really, what does a conventional dual natured creature do when it 'eats' an astrally projecting mage or a spirit? It uses it's physical attacks, yeah? I mean, i don't know, magic stuff was never really my bag anyway. So, a possessed bullet, dual natured by at least some definitions, still interacts with the astral like any other dual natured object does. Physically? I mean, what does a (barghests are dual natured right? Or was it hell hounds? Both???) do when it, say, crosses a Ward? swats at a pesky astral mage that is bugging it? I assume dual natured beasties normally avoid crossing wards, but do they 'bounce off' when thrown across them? Is the Ward 'real' to them? Thus would our dual natured bullet have to 'pierce' the barrier that isn't there for the mundane barrier? If we agree that a spirit can inhabit a bullet via possession, then these are real, in game physics, questions that need to be resolved via 'in game physics' logic, not 'I think it sounds broken'. |
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Jun 3 2007, 10:46 PM
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#45
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
An excellent quote, Konsaki. In this case, a rules-fuzzy are like this almost rquires a ruling to be made by the GM. Not veryone will agree with my proposal, but it's there for those that wan't to try something a bit outside the usual while still remaining within the rough guidelines set by the rules.
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Jun 3 2007, 10:52 PM
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#46
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
O, I'll give it a try from my viewpoint.
I have it use Unarmed Combat. It sounds as though AH would have it use Astral Combat.
I say yes.
It uses its physical attributes to try and break the barrier. I would say that it also uses any applicable skill, such as Unarmed Combat.
Ward is solid to them both.
Agreed, but most of these seem intuitive to me. I'm pretty comfortable with the magic rules (not so good with the matrix/technomancer rules) and even with pushing/modifying them. |
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Jun 3 2007, 11:06 PM
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#47
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Strictly speaking, RAW says a dual natured creature uses Astral Combat + Willpower to battle wholly astral entities (this would typically include wards).
However, most of the dual natured critters do not have Astral Combat, and it is not allowable to default on it. This means such creatures are totally ineffective at dealing with anything on the astral. This is a pretty good reason for a houserule. |
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Jun 3 2007, 11:46 PM
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#48
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
<shrug> Maybe they don't like fighting things they can't chew and digest. Maybe it'll show up in ther errata. In the meantime, there's nothing stopping a GM from giving a critter the Astral Combat Skill.
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Jun 3 2007, 11:57 PM
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#49
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Target Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: 19-April 05 From: Amsterdam, UNL Member No.: 7,347 |
Okay, lets forget whether this works or not.
We have a spirit. We let it possess an object. We create an explosion behind that object. The spirit takes the appropriate damage and is very pissed off. I don't think spirits would like to serve that mage again. They might start to use edge when they are summoned or use the Accident power to keep the gun from firing them. Also this seems awfully more complicated compared to just having a spirit take orders from a mundane teammate. |
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Jun 4 2007, 12:25 AM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 941 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,765 |
Well, having them not like bothering with pesky immaterial creatures would run counter to why Corp types keep them as after hours security... they can and will attack and 'eat' astral intruders almost instinctively... or so I read it way back in whatever edition it was I first noticed that whole bit about 'dual natured' guard dogs.
As for 'abusing' the spirits... I don't quite get it, particularly if you are using them, say, to possess steel shot. That stuff doesn't get so roughed up in firing and I thought spirits were pretty indifferent to physical stuff, even possessing spirits don't focus much on the state of their host unless they get something out of it, right? Seems like a 'I think it's broken so I'll find a way to punish someone that tries it' mentality to me. Me? I think it's impracticable on any real level, but cool anyway. :D I can see some cliched swamp voodoo houngan with his 'spirit shotgun' totally in canon. |
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