 Magic Bullets!, Shotgun kills Big Bad Evil Spirit! |
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 Jun 4 2007, 12:35 AM
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#51
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Mr. Johnson  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314  |
Wow, I go away for a bit, and miss a whole lotta thread.
Somebody at some point said that a possessed bullet is imparted a DV. I can't agree with this. The bullet is imparted a degree of kinetic energy, and that energy is transferred upon impact, which is in turn described by the rules in terms of DV. Kinetic energy does not exist astrally. Back to our possessed bullet. It's dual-natured, yes? As is its theoretical target, the materialized spirit. When a dual-natured being encounters something, the aspect of the environment (physical or astral) that has the most restrictive conditions apply, right? A dual-natured being can't wander through a ward placed over field, for example. In the astral, two beings can't really push one another or wrestle or the like (e.g. FAB II cannot stop an astral being unless encased in some physical object), they can just hurt one another, so the most restrictive environment is the physical plane, bringing us back to using the gun's DV and the spirit's Armor. |
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Jun 4 2007, 01:10 AM
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#52
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
I agree but I also consider the possessed object to be a magic weapon for the purposes of defeating Immunity to Normal Weapons. |
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Jun 4 2007, 01:20 AM
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#53
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Yesp. In order to have the things do what they are supposed to be able to do you have to houserule them having the Astral Combat skill.
Quite right. The original character I envisoned using this would have used a bow with handmade arrows. Later I considered a black powder pistol with homemade ammuntion. Neither weapon is really going to do all that much damage to it's ammunition. Considering that the Force of the Spirit adds to the effective Body of the object and adds twice it's value as Hardened Armor against normal weapons (such as the gunpowder explosion that propels it), even a Force 1 Spirit adds quite of bit of durabiltity to that arrow or lead ball.
I've noticed this a lot around here. It seems pretty common in many RPGs, but Shadowrun really seems to bring it out. Too many '"screw the 'runners" scenarios in the setting get people to start sliding into "screw the players" in the rulings. They really shouldn't be the same thing.
Impractical? Hell yeah! But... that image you crafted is great. Spirit shotgun is just too cool. It's like an actual casse of CP2020's 'style over substance' in action. |
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Jun 4 2007, 01:27 AM
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#54
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
So....isn't this just a simple case of "do whatever you want with your home campaign"?
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Jun 4 2007, 01:34 AM
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#55
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Not hardly! :please: It's a complex case of 'might work like this if you like' - similar to most of the rules in the book really. :nyah: |
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Jun 4 2007, 01:42 AM
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#56
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Pretty much, yeah. |
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Jun 4 2007, 02:20 AM
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#57
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
So a person would have to wield it, then? Or are you making two exceptions to the rules? |
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Jun 4 2007, 04:16 AM
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#58
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Except it won't be RAW. :D |
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Jun 4 2007, 05:14 AM
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#59
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Ok, time for a little good Good post:
Bad post:
Drop the insults and return to your normally scheduled program. |
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Jun 4 2007, 06:46 AM
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#60
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
No... An Admin has said I have been playing it like the Cancerous Game! It cannot be! :D |
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Jun 4 2007, 07:37 AM
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#61
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
There is a lot of wiggle room in the RAW, but there is a huge difference between the RAW and what was intended, because the rules were written by people who are not omniscient.
It has always been intended that Astral Bullets are impossible. That's just the way the game was intended from the very start and that intent has remained throughout all the editions, that is one of the few things that has remained consistent throughout the editions. Even when they actually printed rules that explicitly allowed astral bullets back in SR3's Target: Awakened Lands they included a disclaimer that basically said that they should never actually be used in a game and if they are they should be absurdly rare. Magical bullets have been possible since anchoring was invented, but they are absurdly expensive due to the associated karma cost. The problem with having a possessed bullet act as a magic bullet is that this solution is far easier and far cheaper than every other solution out their, as well as far more common. But, its your game. Do what you will with it. |
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Jun 4 2007, 07:49 AM
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#62
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Just a thought to those saying that a character must be "wielding" it for it to count as a magical weapon. How about a possessed arrow, thrown by an adept with missile mastery. Would that work? I suppose it fits the same as if adept had a sword weapon focus, and decided to throw it instead of swing it.
How would you rule that? Say its a weapon focus, sword. Adept has missile mastery. Would adept roll only throwing + agi? Throwing + agi + weapon focus dice? Astral combat + will? Astral combat + will + weapon focus dice? |
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Jun 4 2007, 08:18 AM
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#63
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
The part that makes me think this is plausible is under the vessel rules where it says that a weapon does its normal damage or force/2 and can affect astral. There is the argument that a bullet is ammunition but how would it work for a throwing knife? It's not hard to stretch from a knife to a baseball to a bullet. All three are doing damage because of the speed they are traveling at.
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Jun 4 2007, 08:41 AM
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#64
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
I personally see no problem against this as the rules DO allow it and is rather clearly spelled out. There are several balancing factors since the following is needed:
Skills Money Time Just summoning something and infusing it into a piece of metal (bullet, arrowtip) is no easy process. It takes multiple tests and there are several chances of failure. And it is not a magic bullet, it would be an awakened bullet. Also a thing to remember is that it takes TIME for each bullet. Just making a revolver load of 6 bullets would take at least a week: Preparing an inanimate vessel:Enchanting+Magic (Object Resistance x 3, 1 day) So, a bullet would be a manufactured hi-tech objects, so would a bought arrow in 2070. So we are talking about Object Resistance treshold 9. For each bullet it would probably take at least 2 days to prepare. |
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Jun 4 2007, 09:04 AM
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#65
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Target Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: 19-April 05 From: Amsterdam, UNL Member No.: 7,347 |
I haven't decided yet whether or not to allow this or not. We're discussing it now aren't we? Don't make me feel bad about what I said because that will make me less inclined to see things your way and thereby cloud my judgment. Besides we are talking about something that is only possible using an optional rule on p.95 of SM.
Doesn't get roughed up? Although the steel itself is not really damaged when the shot is fired, the shot as a whole is completely changed after being fired from the shotgun. One object turns into many tiny objects. Things usually die when they turn into many things. And if this is the case for the spirit, it will instantly make the bullet a normal bullet again. And materialized spirits surely are not indifferent to physical things in general as they can be affected by them. They might not get hurt much as they have Immunity to Normal Weapons but they'll definitely not like the experience. If you wouldn't like it, they wouldn't like it: Do you want to get crammed into a really small tight space? No Do you want to have an intentional explosion behind you that doesn't hurts? Don't care Do you want to have an intentional explosion behind you that hurts? No! Do you want to have your body intentionally spread across a surface? No! ----- Do you want to do that again some time? Hell no! => Use edge next time to prevent summoning. |
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Jun 4 2007, 09:15 AM
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#66
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
One can make many cool concepts for character through this and personally i don't think it is broken as long as the player/character takes the time to build the darn things.
BUT...there are problems, some can be explained through the concept - even the WHY would a spirit want to be confined to a weapon, it all depends on the caster and his/her belief (and he can be a mofo that doesn't care). The most important thing is astral signature, and lost ammunition. Imagine lonestar/corpsec/grumpy dragon goeing over the last job the team made... ...And finding a Force 4 spirit trapped in a bullet that has lodged into a wall during the brief firefight with one of the guardian spirits... Now, how hard would it be for the magically active in question to find out more about the summoner of said spirit, and the prepared vessel (bullet). I find the concept of a shaman that crafts crossbow bolts of immolation with a fire spirit inside it both fun and imaginative but it will have its drawbacks. I'm also sure that the shaman can give the spirit standing orders that whatever it lodges in when the arrow is hit shall be engulfed by the spirit once and then go back to its home plane. That still leaves the vessel for someone to find - unless the shaman has made it to burn up by the engulfing... |
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Jun 4 2007, 09:19 AM
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#67
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
I would also say that possession of bullets and such would be the WHOLE bullet including the shell. Detonating the shell would most surely damage the spirit.
Throwing daggers, arrows and other muscle powered items would be rather more "safe" for the spirit. Vessel preparation talks about a "vessel" a singular item, breaking it up into smaller parts (Fragmenting ammunition, firing the bullet) would most likely destroy the vessel, and thus the spirit. |
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Jun 4 2007, 09:30 AM
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#68
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Since no one has yet addressed this, a weapon focus is only active as long as it is in physical contract with its owner. The second it leaves his hand it becomes a normal weapon. |
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Jun 4 2007, 09:33 AM
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#69
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
The sword would be a foci and requires the adept to hold onto it while wielding as his magical force/strenght/mojo is channeled through the foci. The arrow can be thrown as it contains it's own aura and force through the spirit that it contains... Oh god...Why am i having the image of a Rigger adept with a Bulldog Stepvan Weapon foci. Rammed by a Bulldog foci at 150 km/hour would hurt like hell. |
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Jun 4 2007, 11:18 AM
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#70
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
I'd say that any possessed item being used as a ranged weapon would at most do Force/2 in damage to an astral form - that the projectile is astrally active shouldn't by default mean that it will bypass immunity with normal damage, because otherwise a sustaining foci 1 with an active spell in it would bypass immunity.
I would never allow an adept to benefit from his Weapon Focus with a thrown attack, due to the focus becoming inactive. |
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Jun 4 2007, 11:43 AM
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#71
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
I’m sorry but it does. Kinetic energy from an adepts fist does the damage – then we add killing hands to gain an astral aspect to the attack. Why then, if no kinetic energy apply would the adept use his physical strength when dealing damage to spirits with killing hands? |
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Jun 4 2007, 11:44 AM
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#72
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Old Man Jones Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699 |
You're not really hitting your target with a bullet, magical or no.
You're hitting it with a spirit. So it's not really any different than telling a regular spirit to "go fly through that astrally active target". The idea that a bullet's speed would be imparting anything significant to the affair is laughable. Spirits can already travel faster than any bullet could hope to move. Adepts are a bit different. They get to add their muscle power to the damage due to the magical nature of their being. A gunpowder explosion has no magic to it. -karma |
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Jun 4 2007, 11:53 AM
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#73
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
In that case one could say the same about the spirits force adding it’s force to the damage of an attack from a weapon due to it’s magical nature. Personally I would go with the following: Astral entity VS spirit ammo: 1 / 2 Force damage (physical bullet does no damage) Materialized VS spirit ammo: 1 / 2 Force damage & Normal physical damage Normal physicla damage would be subject to normal immunity rules |
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Jun 4 2007, 01:28 PM
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#74
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Since most of the other points are now being covered by others, I'll just hit this one:
Remember that I had originally applied this idea to arrows, and then thought about using it with a black powder firearm. In the latter case, the heavy ball of lead really is the WHOLE thing since the poweder and wadding is seperate. |
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Jun 4 2007, 01:35 PM
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#75
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
It is cerainly possible for a Spirit to use Possession on a vehicle, including a drone. It won't get anything out of the vehicle's electronics or AR interface, but it can still ram the hell out of stuff and operate integrated equipment (the example of a posessed car describes changing radio stations). Realize that even Guardian Spirits are uanble to get Gunnery (it's a Vehicle skill, not a Combat skill), but they can default on it. |
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