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> Parachuting, Base jumping, HOW difficult!!
Shockwave_IIc
post Nov 10 2003, 01:47 AM
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Ok This is kind of a follow on thread to my one about spirits.

You see our little prankster (well call him Tag) needs a bit of a back up plan for when he painting the side of a building (still 140 floors up appox 500m) So i was thinking a LALO parachute, for the purpose's (if need or for fun) of base jumping off of said building. (I'm one of these people that has to have to character actually able to do his/ her chosen hobby)

So i decidded to have a reread of the parachuting rules. I have discovered that Tag is looking at Tn's of 12+ :eek: to just OPEN his chute let alone not hit any buildings on the way down! ( 6 (10-4 (for 400m opening) +2 LALO, +4 Tight terrain, not including any weather effects)

Is it me or does that just seem a little on the high side?

Now granted i haven't done any parachuting myself so i might be suffering from the effects of hollywoodism. But if not how good (ie skill lvl) do you have to be to be able to base jump! (Let alone as good as swoop from drop zone).

And as a side note. Again is it me or is 30kgs a bit on the heavy side for a LALO parachute?
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TinkerGnome
post Nov 10 2003, 02:07 AM
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Hmm... it does seem like it's insanely hard to pull off a HALO jump. Inside the city parachuting is nigh on impossible, from the looks of it, as well.

Considering the types of wind currents you normally get in a city with big buildings, though, I can't say it's not realistic.
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252
post Nov 10 2003, 02:08 AM
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I can tell you parachutes are fraggin heavy I thought that 30kgs were pretty heavy for modern day stuff. I thought materials were lighter now, I know that they were this heavy back in World War II, its one of the reasons it was so dangerous for a parachuter to drop into a warzone, nobody thought to take a look at the type of terrain that these boys were jumping into, light marshes so to speak. And there was death of a lot of the parachuters, not even to mention the amount of death that was around from enemy guns.
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Siege
post Nov 10 2003, 02:20 AM
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Take a look at this webpage and give it a skim for BASE jumping.

Eeek!

As for the safety of such an expedition, I have no idea and I couldn't begin to compare it to standard chute jumping, HALO or whathaveyou.

-Siege
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mfb
post Nov 10 2003, 02:21 AM
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personally, i think that the parachuting roll should be made by the packer, with the parachuter's roll being used to reduce scatter, the same way you handle grenades.
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Kanada Ten
post Nov 10 2003, 02:30 AM
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I would think parachuting from a plane makes it harder to get in between buildings and such than jumping from the inside the building area.

I would remove the tight terrain modifier unless they jump from much higher than the surrounding cityscape. Also, the HALO penalty could be reduced by one with every two successes on a Base Jumping (4) knowledge skill test.
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Shockwave_IIc
post Nov 10 2003, 02:35 AM
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Well i've just been to a fw sites and found out a few RL details about base jumping.

Bridge day is an event held once a year, were people jump from a bridge (na? really?) 876ft high (appox 265.45 m) a rock dropped from this height takes 8.8 secs to hit the water below.
The longest you can fall before opening your chute is 7 sec, 1.8 secs for your chute to slow your desent enough as to not break your legs. but for safty i'll go with a free fall time of 3 secs (one combat turn) so at the end of that combat turn you have fallen (According to Scomp pg 46) 40+80+120meters or 240 meters.

So if i have this right (and i might not) You have 25.45 meters for your parachute to open AND slow your fall!?!? Yeah right...

Oh and the Tn's for the bridge day jump?
Lets see. 10- (25.45/100) so 10 then
plus +2 for low Altitude
plus +1 for opening below minmum safe opening
plus +2 for restricted LZ (a 30m diameter) Sorry did i not mention that?

So Tn's of 15. And the odds of getting that with a skill of 6 is..... 1.85% if my maths is correct.

So what skill level are you needing just to be able to jump at bridge day!?!?

[Edit] rechecked the maths[/EDIT]
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Dim Sum
post Nov 10 2003, 03:01 AM
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Shockwave, BASE jumping is a little more involved than a freefall jump and organisers usually do not allow inexperienced jumpers to take part (I'd love to do it but I'm still way shy of the number of jumps most organisers require before I'd be permitted to take part). Maybe someone on DSF who has actually made a BASE jump will be able to enlighten you further but from what I know, I'd say you're quite on the money with the TNs you calculated - bear in mind, the TNs are for both SAFELY maneuvering BEFORE and AFTER you deploy your chute in Tight Terrain.
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Shockwave_IIc
post Nov 10 2003, 03:14 AM
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@ Dim sum, I don't doubt it's more difficult. And i Also found out that your needing 150 freefall jumps before they will let you.

But the Tn's of 14 is for restricted terrain not Tight, thats Tn's of 16.

Now i'm not saying that base jumping is easy, but Tn's of 10+ is rated at nearly impossible (with any regulaterity) but these are 15+!! to have an 66% chance of getting those without reroll your needing a skill of 36!!

Now sorry but THAT is too high. Something is wrong.

[Edit] rechecked the maths(again)[/Edit]
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FlakJacket
post Nov 10 2003, 03:18 AM
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The parachuting TN's have always been a little on the high side. IIRC, none of the writers had much if any experience so the author - I forget who it was - basically had to use a couple documentaries and research when writing the rules. If you think they're too high, just sit down with the GM and house-rule them to something more to your liking. :)
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Dim Sum
post Nov 10 2003, 03:28 AM
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QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc)
@ Dim sum, I don't doubt it's more difficult. And i Also found out that your needing 150 freefall jumps before they will let you.

But the Tn's of 14 is for restricted terrain not Tight, thats Tn's of 16.

Now i'm not saying that base jumping is easy, but Tn's of 10+ is rated at nearly impossible (with any regulaterity) but these are 14+!! to have an 83% chance of getting those without reroll your needing a skill of 36!!

Now sorry but THAT is too high. Something is wrong.

Hey, Shock, just went through your math and you're right. I'd house rule and break up the jump into two phases: before and after deploying your chute. Since you're jumping from Restricted Terrain in the first place and are not maneuvering through it, waive the terrain modifier so you only have a TN for freefall part of the jump. A successful deployment is then followed by manuevering the glide to the desired landing point and the GM can modify that as needed depending on wind conditions and buildings around.

This way, you'll probably still end up with pretty high TNs but all sub-10 unless the character is trying something really difficult.
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TinkerGnome
post Nov 10 2003, 03:58 AM
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Adapt the grenade rules to the parachuting rules. It may well be that you want to keep the parachuting TNs as they are, but simply require successes to reduce scatter. A result of all 1s indicates a mishap like a non-functional chute.
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Dim Sum
post Nov 10 2003, 03:59 AM
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Not a bad call, TinkerGnome. I like it.
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mfb
post Nov 10 2003, 04:02 AM
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if you break the roll down into two parts, you should definitely be using the skill of the parachute packer for the first part (getting the chute to open correctly), rather than the skill of the guy going the jump. there's not much can screw up on, when it comes to yanking ripcords; it's all about how much attention to detail was put into packing the parachute into the bag. if the chute was packed poorly, no amount of skill on the part of the parachutist is going to save him; if it was packed correctly, no amount of incompetenct on the part of the parachutist is going to kill him.

that said, the idea of rolling the parachutist's skill to reduce grenade-style scatter is brilliant. glad i thought of it!
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TinkerGnome
post Nov 10 2003, 04:09 AM
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You don't even have to add new rules for successes, actually. The only change you need to make is that 0 successes means you land with full scatter and with full damage potential. Successes can be used to reduce either of those :)
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Shockwave_IIc
post Nov 10 2003, 04:10 AM
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QUOTE (Dim Sum @ Nov 10 2003, 03:28 AM)
This way, you'll probably still end up with pretty high TNs but all sub-10 unless the character is trying something really difficult.

I've got no issue with that, I'm mean i was looking at Tn's of the 8-9 mark anyhow. But the 14+'s just looked sooo wrong.

But just out of curiosity how can you Tn's for the base jump below 10?

For Tag, the character in question i was gonna go with a parachuting skill 6 (maybe 5(7)) and thus I was seriously needing lower Tn's


[EDIT]Oh side note, According to the sites i visited terminal Velocity is 120Mph (or According to R3 160 Mpt) just something else since we're kinda on the subject of falling[/EDIT]
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Game2BHappy
post Nov 11 2003, 09:12 PM
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In 2002, 750 people jumped off of the 876' New River Gorge Bridge during Bride Day. There were two sprained ankles.

Using the Shadowrun rules and giving every jumper a skill of 8 in BASE jumping, and allowing for ideal conditions (immediately attempting to open the chute and no restricted terrain or weather), we would get a Target Number of 10 just for the chute to open.

This would mean the chute only opens 50.15% of the time.

i.e. 373 dead BASE jumpers during the first set of jumps on Bridge Day.

Since the average base jumper jumps 1-4 times during the day, the death toll would be even higher.

Even if each of those failed jumpers blew 6 karma pool to save their accellerating hoops, 55 of them wouldn't even get their chutes open during the first jump.

Of those that did get their chutes open, almost none of them would have had enough remaining successes to get anywhere near the landing zone or prevent landing injury.

IMO, the rules need our help. We have GM fudged it in the past, but our characters are scared to initiate any plan involving parachuting because it seems so deadly for even the most experienced jumper.

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Shockwave_IIc
post Nov 11 2003, 09:14 PM
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So anychance of some one coming up with a new set of rules (of a sort).

I ask you people, because i don't like redoing rules when it's my character thats going to be involved.


OT, why do my threads always burn out quickly, 12hrs of fast replys then nadda.
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Game2BHappy
post Nov 11 2003, 09:30 PM
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To be honest, I might not have responded had I not somehow missed the excellent solutions posted by T-Gnome, Dim-Sum and others.

I do still wonder if mods to the target numbers aren't still in order somehow. Even if we allow 0 successes to just be a higher scatter and higher chance of injury I would like my players to at least have a fair chance of landing inside a security fence. :)
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Siege
post Nov 12 2003, 04:40 AM
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Bah, he'd have to be moving pretty fast to land inside the fence.

Maybe behind it, but inside? Ouch. :grinbig:

-Siege
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 16 2003, 10:38 PM
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QUOTE (Game2BHappy @ Nov 11 2003, 03:12 PM)
In 2002, 750 people jumped off of the 876' New River Gorge Bridge during Bride Day.  There were two sprained ankles.

Using the Shadowrun rules and giving every jumper a skill of 8 in BASE jumping, and allowing for ideal conditions (immediately attempting to open the chute and no restricted terrain or weather), we would get a Target Number of 10 just for the chute to open.

This would mean the chute only opens 50.15% of the time.

i.e. 373 dead BASE jumpers during the first set of jumps on Bridge Day.

Since the average base jumper jumps 1-4 times during the day, the death toll would be even higher.

Even if each of those failed jumpers blew 6 karma pool to save their accellerating hoops, 55 of them wouldn't even get their chutes open during the first jump.

Of those that did get their chutes open, almost none of them would have had enough remaining successes to get anywhere near the landing zone or prevent landing injury.

IMO, the rules need our help.  We have GM fudged it in the past, but our characters are scared to initiate any plan involving parachuting because it seems so deadly for even the most experienced jumper.

Hmm, here's a few comments from two other posters on another thread. I figured that since they didn't feel like offering their poignant and helpful opinions on this thread, I'd do it for them.

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
And there is no one who is not in some way crippled who cannot move more than one meter in a second without running, but you can have a Quickness 1 character without them being in any way crippled.

Keep your realism away from the game when discussing canon rules. It has no place.

QUOTE (Zazen)
No kidding.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 16 2003, 10:45 PM
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Thanks :)

~J
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Shockwave_IIc
post Nov 16 2003, 10:57 PM
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But when the rules are clearly wrong/ lacking you have to start looking else where. To get an idea on how difficult things like that are you look up real world referenes.

But then you have a bit of a problem with a little bit of realism in your games. Note i said little bit.

Beside as the rules stand the skill is so not worth taking.
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 16 2003, 11:01 PM
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I agree completely, actually.

I liked MFB's suggestion for having the packer make a test to set the 'chute up properly. You could then base some of the conditional TNs on how the packer packed the 'chute. If he prepared it for one of these BASE jumps, then you could elimate that particular mod. But if you try to use it anywhere else, you not only have to add that conditional mod, but you have to add in the one the packer originally planned for, too.

But then again, that just makes using a 'chute packed for some other occassion for a different one suicidal at best. I don't know enough about parachuting to really offer any sound suggestions, sadly. :D But I really did like MFB's suggestion. It makes a lot of sense to me.
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apple
post Nov 16 2003, 11:08 PM
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Well, it would not be the first time that Fanpro/Fasa has some Problems with numbers. ;)

Just use the skill like any other skill. Roll it against TN 2 + modifiers, given by the game master, depending on the situation, and just estimate the result depending on the number of successes. Real-world parachute situations should rarely have an TN above 6-8.

SYL
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