 Possession and Attribute Maximums., Does the physical form limit the Spirit? |
  |
 Jun 5 2007, 09:13 PM
Post
#26
|
|||
|
Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669  |
The exception is when the summoning Magician has the Spirit use Possession on his own body. He then has 'captain's chair' control. With the Channeling metamagic, the Magician has direct control. |
||
 |
 
|
||
|
Jun 5 2007, 10:33 PM
Post
#27
|
|||||||||||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
There seems to be a misunderstanding here. A ward's frame of reference is not the "largest physical object" that the ward can encompass, but rather its relation with its anchor when the ward is raised (note the anchor must be inside the ward). A ward must maintain its relative frame of reference with regards to its anchor (though that anchor may move around as long as the ward retains its shape). For instance: I want to ward a room. I tell the gamemaster that I want the ward to conform to the walls of the room (although I could tell him I want the ward to conform to a 5m³ of empty air in the middle of the room). I use the aforementioned rock/a magic circle/a series of candles in the center of the ward as the anchor. Once the ward is created, that relative frame of reference (with regards to the anchor) cannot be changed without disrupting the ward. Hence if the rock/circle/candles are kicked away, the ward is disrupted because the walls remain where they were and the anchor moves. Were the walls able to move and maintain the same frame of reference with the moving rock/circle/candle (such as in the case of a container) then the ward would not collapse (and yes, this works much the same when warding in the open air though there the ground poses a problem, the anchor must be a meter off the ground if you stick to the rules literally). Hence you can ward a container or a car as long as the anchor remains static with regards to the ward. If the anchor moves the limits of the ward must be able to move with it.
The thing to grasp is that a ward's frame of reference is internal. What matters is that it remains at the same relative distance it was originally raised at with regards to its physical anchor (which must be inside it - see your quote below).
All this means is that a ward has a minimum volume and that regardless of its form and shape, its physical anchor must lie at least 1m inside its perimeter in every direction. So, technically, no warding bullets (although bullets may be used as anchors, though since you can't nest wards you can only really have a warded bullet/anchor on you at any given time).
All this means is that a ward cannot be picked up and moved.
I submit that the fact that magical lodges are a more permanent form of mana barrier is why they can't be moved. |
||||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||||
|
Jun 5 2007, 10:52 PM
Post
#28
|
|||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Your reservations were raised and debated when this issue was discussed. It was decided that capping Possession enhancements during normal possession and Channeling is balanced at both the low end and high end. After reviewing the issue at length it was decided that—besides the ever present possibility of using Possession offensively—a Channeling magician's ability to call on his magical skills and the Possessing spirit's powers at will, the raising of relevant Attributes to their augmented maximums, and Immunity to Normal Weapons represent enough of a bonus in terms of game balance for the cost of Channeling... and consequently there was no need to break the augmented maximum caps. Should the magician want more physical ooomph, he can always call up a mighty loa of Ogoun (force 12 possession guardian spirit) and have it take over a troll zombie or security guard. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 5 2007, 11:17 PM
Post
#29
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
so wait... the cap is only for magicians who are channelling spirits?
right... that makes sense... |
|
|
|
|
Jun 5 2007, 11:19 PM
Post
#30
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
well, it's only fair. so a high-end houngan gets no extra benefit from tossing a high-force spirit into a high-Str vessel--so what? how is that any less unfair than a high-Str human getting no benefit from that fourth level of muscle replacement? i think the limits are a bad idea, but it's an even worse idea to apply them unevenly.
|
|
|
|
|
Jun 5 2007, 11:20 PM
Post
#31
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Force 12? Why? The most a Troll can get is a 15 in Body and Strength, and you'll hit that with a Force 10 even if we assume the most puny Troll around (Body 5, Strength 5). You'll cap our Agility with a Force 6, and Reaction with a Force 8 (once again assuming the physical minimums for a Troll). So let's compare: Force 12 Possession Guardian Spirit (in a Troll's body) B 15, A 7, R 9, S 15 Force 12 Materialized Guardian Spirit B 13, A 14, R 15, S 14 Overall, the Materialized Spirit is far superior. Also remember than the as the Force goes up, the Materialized Spirit just keeps getting better while the Possession Spirit has already capped out (in fact, it capped out at Force 10). |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 5 2007, 11:29 PM
Post
#32
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
There is also the other side of the coin. Possession Traditions make out well on the low end.
Consider: Force 4 Possession Guardian Spirit (in a Troll's body) B 9, A 5, R 5, S 9 Force 4 Materialized Guardian Spirit B 5, A 6, R 7, S 6 Once again, that's a bottom of the gene pool Troll. With even a basic human (all 3's in the physical attributes) you'll have a superior set of stats to the Materialized Spirit. |
|
|
|
|
Jun 5 2007, 11:44 PM
Post
#33
|
|||||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
No, the cap is for all possessed living vessels - including those that use Channeling. Frank and HappyDaze are expressing their concerns regarding how this impacts possession magicians Channeling high-force spirits but the caps apply to all possession and inhabitation vessels.
I chose Force 12 because that's the max force a beginning magician can actually call - to underscore that a possession magician could call up a Force 12 spirit just as easily (or not) as a non-possession magician. At the high end, statistically, the materializing spirit will be better in terms of Attributes, no question. At the low-end it really all depends on choice of vessels and the spirit being called. Also consider that (a) if the possession spirit is remains on the astral it is equally powerful (and could still tackle its dual natured materializing counterparts on equal terms), (b) if it should jump to the physical at this power level it will be able to take over an opponent almost automatically, ( c) it still uses all its powers at its normal Magic/Force, and (d) it retains Immunity to Normal Weapons based on Force. As always, don't like the ruling, feel free to change it. I am simply explaining the reasoning behind it. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jun 6 2007, 12:25 AM
Post
#34
|
|||||||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Yes. This is why the limits being slapped on a possession spirit should be the same asthe limits on a materialization spirit. Which are none, btw.
That's terrible. Seriously, that's really really bad. I can only conclude that you haven't played high end games, because if you had it would be profoundly difficult for you to be flippant about saying that a materializing spirit will be better in terms of attributes. That's what high end spirits are. They have big attributes, that's the whole point, the beginning and end of everything cool that they do. When you summon a spirit into yourself you are reducing the total amount of beating that your side can take andreducing the amount of offensive potential your side has relative to just summoning a materialization spirit. Remember that destroying a spirit and a magician who are in two places takes at least one more attack than taking out both at once. Remember also that one mage casting spells while a spirit throws fire bolts is more attacks than having a magician merged with a spirit throw spells or firebolts. In exchange for reducing your side's overall defensive and offensive potential, you're looking at increasing your personal offensive and defensive potential. And that's a good deal if you happen to be in a situation where enemies are throwing area attacks, or where opponents are so dangerously well defended that a lesser attack wouldn't accomplish much. But if you're talking about reducing your overall defensive and offensive potential in order to merge yourself with a spirit and become a combined entity that actually is both an easier kill and a worse shot than a materializing spirit would be all on its own, that's just a shit deal. A big conjurer isn't a Mage with a spirit, he's a platform for releasing SPIRITS. If those spirits are weaker, then he's weaker. It doesn't matter if he has immunity to normal weapons or not, because that's not actually all that great of a power.
-Frank |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Jun 6 2007, 12:39 AM
Post
#35
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
if anything, caps should be placed on materialized spirits. it's a closed system, you can't run around breaking it open.
|
|
|
|
|
Jun 6 2007, 12:51 AM
Post
#36
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
I agree that this isn't as big of a nerf as some would think, since as Synner has pointed out, magic is still an uncapped stat. On the other hand, since the true power of a spirit lies in its force and powers, then what is the point of bothering to nerf their attributes to begin with? It might make them considerably more durable and maybe marginally faster, but at the end of the day, it's still often far more useful to have 1 mage and 1 spirit working in tandem than it is to have one mage set his powers aside for a in exchange for a marginally buffed spirit.
I just can't help but think of my own SR4 experiences, experiences which have shown me that most people's concerns about Possession Mages is usually just so much baseless handwringing. If you can break the game with a possession mage, then you can break it with a materialization tradition. Except, of course, with a materialization tradition, you can sit around at the coffee shop while Casper does the dirty work, if you so choose. |
|
|
|
|
Jun 6 2007, 01:05 AM
Post
#37
|
|||||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Actually, Magic is a capped stat, Peter is merely saying that the rule he is writing will cause Physical stats to be capped, but not Mental or Special attributes. It's just a piece of dangerous and turbulent inconsistency. The possession spirits get hosed when using physical abilities, but are completely unaffected whn using purely magical abiltiies (save that their Initiative will be much lower).
As you've doubtless noticed, the game wrks slightly better if you open up all the caps for everyone. And based on the very real chance that even Lofwyr has of simply falling over dead if he tries to bind a Force 12 spirit, it can be said that Spirits already effectively have caps. However, slapping some spirits with more stringent caps than others is a really obviously bad idea. -Frank |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jun 6 2007, 01:13 AM
Post
#38
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Have to admit I am going only with the rough idea of SR4 possesion since havent played with it that much.
It seems to me the BIG advantage of Possesion over Materlization is: Remove an enemy. Possesion spirit posses one of your enemies. Mage & Spirit still act AND you have one less enemy to worry about. Here a higher force makes it more likely the possesion works, yet may very likely get capped results. I would see a good compromsie to this debate. Forced Poession since the host is still resisting are fixed at normal caps. Voluntary possesions since the host is actively helping, have no caps and the spirit uses it full effect. So a Materlization based conjurer. Can get do his stuff AND have a big buddy running around. A Possesion based conjurer can: 1) Have spirit posses an enemey: a) Taking a enemy out of the fight, b) Still do 'his stuff', however, the spirit might have capped stats. 2) Have the spirit posses a willing host (himself or others), in which case The spirit will more then likely have 'better' stats then the materlization spirit of the same force, yet the conjurers side lose an ally (be it the conjurer or another voluntary subject). If the conjurer is the one possed, running around with high teen stats doesnt bother me if talking about a force 10+ spirit. If the conjurer takes an enemy out of the fight AND has an ally now with high teen stats that seem alittle much. |
|
|
|
|
Jun 6 2007, 02:05 AM
Post
#39
|
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Possessing enemies is very weird from a tactical point of view. Actually, it's so weird and frightening tactically that I opposed its inclusion. But regardless, here's the consideration:
Possessing an opponent is a Save-or-Die action that takes an enemy out of the fight if it works and doesn't do much of anything if it fails. The enemy can be rescued - but probably aren't going to be before the end of the fight. The power for comparison is not Influence, but Engulf. The thing that makes it really different is that while an Engulfing Spirit can go astral and leave you to die, a possession spirit can wait on the Astral plane and do his attack directly out of the ether. Which is extremely powerful if the spirit is alone, because it means that he can't be attacked by enemies on the physical until he has had a chance to get a good attack in. But if the spirit is coming in with other characters it's a liability since as previously noted the spirit is one of the most resiliant and replaceable characters on their team and if anyone should be the one to get shot at - it's the spirit. So tactically speaking, having your spirits attempt to possess enemies is something that is usually only a good idea if you are pulling a cheese move where you send disposable spirits in one at a time from a protected vantage point until you run out of enemies or become too drained to continue. And while possession is demonstrably superior at that, it is not because the spirit has any particular set of physical stats at the end of the day. In fact, sending high force spirits for this particular tactic is probably a bad plan, since the entire point is drain and risk minimization. (As a compelte aside, I didn't want it to be included in the book on the grounds that I find that particular tactic distasteful - recall that I got the unlimited spirits on remote service pulled for much the same reason). -Frank |
|
|
|
|
Jun 6 2007, 02:23 AM
Post
#40
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Frank where does it say that a possesion cant be an enemy. While Inhabitation requires a prepared vessel, possesion doesn't. Nothing I can see limits the test. Considering there is an OPPOSED test, that would pretty much implies an unwilling vessel.
I disagree the PERFECT place for it is the... Ohh crap who said anything about a Vampire, Drake, Hell while a better chance of resisting even an enemy mage. I see it as very useful for that one very high force spirit kept for an emergency. Sure you may very well on the fly summon and channel Tim the tank, to keep yourself alive (as mentioned), but you have that one service force 12 bound spirit for the Ohh crap. As mentioned tell him to posses (the biggest threat you have) and you have a low risk (unless somebody goes astral can stop the spirit and tangling with a force 12 spirit on the astral is painful) way that if going to take out MOST opponents... AND give you a very significant extra punch. You may not intend possesion of enemies but from my printing of street magic I sure cant see anything that stops it, or even implies that this is the case (since there is an opposed roll), and IT is the major advantage of possesion versus materlization. Weaken enemy AND Strengthen your team.... |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 6 2007, 02:30 AM
Post
#41
|
|||||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Nowhere. We were just having a discussion about the tactical utility of using possession on your enemies, so it would be pretty weird if I was also claiming that you couldn't use possession on your enemies.
Uh... sure. I'll just go down to the store and bind a Force 12 Spirit. OH WAIT! If I do that I'll fucking die! Do you know what happens when you bind a Force 12 spirit?
So on average, binding a Force 12 spirit involves resisting 16 Physical damage that can't be magically healed. If you're going to use an example, you should use real numbers. -Frank |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jun 6 2007, 02:35 AM
Post
#42
|
|||||||||||||||
|
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
I agree, but I think your argument begs the question. Please help clarify a few things.
Assume a ward anchored to a rock in a cargo container; the ward is in the same size, shape, and position as the container. If I go inside and move the rock, the ward collapses, right? If a crane moves the rock by lifting the cargo container, the ward does not collapse, but rather moves, right? If this last is correct, how is this not moving the ward? What forces are at work that allow the ward to move? Why does the ward collapse when I change its position relative to the warded area, but not the crane? Is the cargo container somehow imparted some magical properties because it happens to occupy a space that corresponds to the warded area, even though it is not the anchor?
Would the ward collapse if the walls are torn down but the anchor left undisturbed? If not, why is the position of the walls important if the entire room were moved? If so, would a person or large object entering or leaving the warded area cause it to collapse because the relative area within the warded area has changed?
If the anchor is moved, what is keeping the ward from being able to move with it? Sure, the ground is an astral presence, but what if my rock was in a skyscraper? Are the physical walls somehow affecting the astral construct of the ward without being anchors themselves? It seems to me that the rules are fairly explicit that the anchor is what is important to a ward, and not what it envelops.
So I can actually kick an anchor placed on top of a building, and as long as the ward moved with the rock, it would not collapse? If not the anchor, what keeps a ward in place when it is in a room, the walls?
Except that the FAQ and your explanation seem to say that wards can be picked up and moved, albeit only when their shape happens to coincide with some physical object.
I'd argue that as a more permanent form of mana barrier, they'd be more robust, but it'd be academic. |
||||||||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||||||||
|
Jun 6 2007, 02:53 AM
Post
#43
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Consiering the 'exception' is possesing the conjurer (or possesing the conjurer who has channelling), it certainly seems that posseing others are allowed. The only possible thing that might limit 'just anybody' would be:
However, my reading implies these count as a 'prepared' vessel for inhabitiation (and or +6 dice for possesion test). Since possesion is specifically stated as not needing a prepared vessel, then the question comes what other vessels would be allowed. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jun 6 2007, 03:31 AM
Post
#44
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Damn near anything. In addition to living creatures, I've seen weapons, armor, vehicles, streetsigns, rocks, and dead bodies (do these need to be prepared as Zombies?) all targeted by Possession. What doesn't seem to be clear is how homonculi (such as a Wicker Man) are ruled. Are these an exception to normal objects since they can move while Possessed? Are they built for a maximum Force or a specific Force - If a Wicker Man is built for Force 6 can it only be used by a Force 6 Spirit or by any Spirit of Force 6 or less? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 6 2007, 04:23 AM
Post
#45
|
|||||||||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Happydaze: That is pretty much covered in the sence Hommculi are 'prepared vessels' The 'enchating' process is what makes them mobile (where possesing the statue doesnt).
The wicker man, Plasteel Homucilus, Stone homuculus are all homculi. The rules also state what 'force' can inhabit. For you wickerman in example. You have: To 'craft' the base form you need to do:
So you would prepare a wicker man at force X and anything up to force X could inhabit / posses it. You do also have these requirements:
The enchanting test is already mentioned, but you will also need X amount of radicals (depending on the maximum force you want to be able to use the vessel). Also this might factor in:
So force 5 or above you going to need a few more radicals do to mass. Wicker Men or other homuculi are covered pretty well. What is not really covered it what can be possed WITHOUT being a prepared / enchanted vessel. While inhabitation requires it, Possesion does not, but no clear guideline on possesion non-prepared vessels are given. |
||||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||||
|
Jun 6 2007, 05:38 AM
Post
#46
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
The problem is that possession spirits aren't limited to just possessing the mage. In the early game it is a good investment to get yourself possessed, later you have all the golems that are uber powerful. You can also have your high force spirits posses that vehicle that unnamed rigger is jumped into and take over all the physical controls. Your suggestion of allowing the max be exceeded by initiate grade would be a good rule. You could also allow it for initiates with the channeling power even if the spirit wasn't theirs. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 6 2007, 05:53 AM
Post
#47
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 617 Joined: 28-May 03 From: Orlando Member No.: 4,644 |
Hold on a minute, you are saying that my Voodoo Priest can raise a spirit and have it possess anyone I want without any preperation? I thought I read in my SM that any living vessels you were going to use possession on had to be prepared prior. Is this wrong, so now I can have any of my spirits suddenly just possess any member of my team at will!! This is truly awesome!
|
|
|
|
|
Jun 6 2007, 05:56 AM
Post
#48
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
Yeah it is truly awesome. You could bind a bunch of force 4 spirits and have your entire team possessed to buff all there stats up by 4. Much better than learning spells and sustaining all of them to do the same thing. You could also have your spirits posses a street gang and have some heavy back up if you really needed to. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 6 2007, 06:04 AM
Post
#49
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Frank: While it works with Materlization spirits in some way possed would be even better.
Hit check point, bunker, what ever you want. Now we have to get through and speed is of essence not subtlety. Summon spirit Task: Remote service - Go attack and kill people in that bunker / guard house / etc. Eitehr can do it but: !) Materlization spirit: Materlizes and starts fighting. 2) Possesion spirit picks a person at random to posses (only real way it could interact with the people in th building to accomplish task). Spirit has already 'defeated' one of the guards. The guards may be hesitant to shoot their buddy, automated system may not even target the guy with friendly RFID tags, etc. Even if the spirit is killed the instant it posses the target, unless it is banished, the 'vessel' is also dead/stunned and out of action. Possesion spirit garunteed to take one person out, and a VERY solid condusion tactic. (especially since it is much harder to notice a possesion spirit in a vessel then a materlizaed spirit, you will get confusion as to whats going on. A glowing pillar of flame and people are ok, Who sent the fire element. Bob gets twitchy looking in his eyes, and starts shooting people, maybe hes just had one too many BTLs on his off hours. Possesing an enemy you can not lose. Materlizing a spirit and you may get nothing out of it. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 6 2007, 06:17 AM
Post
#50
|
|
|
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Except that your buddies would probably be pretty angry about having their wills subjugated. For a believer of Vodoun, Hudu, Kumina, Voodoo, Santeria, Obeah, Palo, and similar religions would see possession of a divine experience and accept it. Most people, however, would see it as a violation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 12th September 2025 - 06:30 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.