 Possession and Attribute Maximums., Does the physical form limit the Spirit? |
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 Jun 6 2007, 10:43 PM
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#76
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Prime Runner  Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665  |
Common yes. Ubiquitous, no. Remember that Wards are like walls. More than that, they are like air tight walls that go all around something. That's fine for a computer server or something else that doesn't have to get moved, but you'd never put one around anything that something magical might have to go through legitimately. So you're not usually going to see a ward around a citymaster, because sometimes Ares likes to send spirits in to provide Movement and Guard, and having some third party wage mage put up a ward would keep that spirit from using it. Similarly, you're not going to have a ward around a limosine because sometimes the guests are the beneficiaries of quickened spells. Wards are as cheap as razor wire near as makes no odds, so they'd go in any place you'd consider putting up razor wire, and for the same reason. --- So if you've got a facility where none of the magical workers have quickened spells or need to sustain things for long periods of time - go for it. Put up a ward and clearly label where it is so that everything magical can be turned off before stepping over the line and then turn it back on when you reach the other side. If you've got a facility where people could legitimately be expected to carry active magical items and dual objects into the area, then a ward is a really obviously shit idea. So you can put a warded area next to the Hellhound pen, but not in the Hellhound pen. -Frank |
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Jun 6 2007, 10:44 PM
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#77
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Let's try this again. From the current online Websters: portable = 1 a : capable of being carried or moved about <a portable TV> I reiterate: by no understanding of the rules can a ward's astral construct "be carried or moved about" on the astral plane. Hence it is not a "portable astral construct." Note there is a difference between it being able to move and it being carried, transported, or moved. Had we said at any point that a ward's astral construct was immobile, static, or immovable, I'd concede your point. We did not. We said the astral construct of a ward is not portable.
I fail to see an inconsistency. Lack of clarity yes. Inconsistency no. The ward is erected with an anchor as its physical component — at the time it is raised an appropriate shape and size is defined which may or may not conform with physical elements present. As long as the internal relation between the ward and the anchor isn't changed the ward hasn't moved . The core book (p.185) says as much, a ward cannot be moved from its physical component to another location. This means the two cannot be separated or distanced. It makes no reference as to what happens when the physical reference itself moves.
Because nobody actually thought of including it and because it went back and forth several times during development. Neither the authors nor the editors thought to include it. Note that the material you mention above is specifically about raising wards in the first place, nothing more, nothing less.
Again I disagree that this clarification is incompatible with the rules.
Again both Street Magic and the core book state that the ward cannot move in relation to the anchor. If the ward and anchor moves there has been no relative movement.
Yup. Though it ultimately depends on how lenient a GM wants to be.
You are correct in that the wording in the corebook can be interpreted both as referring to the anchor or to the delimiters. Again this will be clarified in upcoming FAQ and errata.
Because no one at the time thought it would be a huge issue since the rules astral constructs/entities/etc moving through one another had already been covered in the rule book. The list in the relevant section of the rule book (p.185-186) covers all sorts of mana barriers including wards, mana barrier spells and magical lodges (p. 185 first paragraph). No where does it state that the aforementioned mana barriers have to be immobile. Please feel free to cite where the rules declare that wards are immobile astral constructs, or where the Passing through Barriers rules spell out what happens when an area astral barrier spell (which I assume you agree can be mobile and is a mana barrier), say cast by someone riding in a car, encounters a ward.
Can we get a reference? Maybe some quoted text?
I reiterate, this is no new rule, it is a clarification on the interpretation of existing rules (especifically the basic rules on Wards in the BBB and in SM). |
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Jun 6 2007, 10:47 PM
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#78
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The minimum ward size is a 1m radius sphere. If you filled that with water, your luggage would come in at 4.19 tonnes. Just saying. -Frank |
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Jun 6 2007, 10:47 PM
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#79
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
This is reminding me of all the relativistic physics coursework and math I used to do a long time ago.
Astral Physics of one kind or another leads to mind warping. |
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Jun 6 2007, 11:15 PM
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#80
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Time to weld the doors shut and just hop in through the open window spaces (there will be no glass). Here comes the warded General Lee! |
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Jun 6 2007, 11:42 PM
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#81
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
While I'd love to continue this discussion (and those that know me know I can argue anything to death) I'm going to be real busy in the next couple of days so I won't be posting to DSF until at least the weekend. Apologies for leaving things hanging, but believe me when I say that most of you will prefer it if I focus on the things I have on my desk at the moment.
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Jun 6 2007, 11:55 PM
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#82
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Well, who doesn't want Arsenal and Emergence and those fun things to come out soon? Raise your hands. (not I...) |
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Jun 7 2007, 12:39 AM
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#83
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
"Wards are not portable astral objects. The warding ritual creates an astral link between the shadow of the physical anchor and the space being warded. If the physical anchor moves more than a few centimeters from its location at the time of the warding ritual, the entire ward collapses." (SM, p. 123) It does not say "moves more than a few centimeters from the ward." The word, "relative" does not appear in any section about wards in either book. The words are "from its location at the time of the warding ritual." Also, my question about moving someone's bedroom hasn't been answered. |
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Jun 7 2007, 12:53 AM
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#84
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
I'd almost like to see the entire section on Wards scrapped and rewritten to include details on the central anchor as well as the outlying perimeter marks.
However, I think we might already be there. |
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Jun 7 2007, 01:35 AM
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#85
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
Well yes I hope so too, but if those are just now beginning to be worked on...... WMS |
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Jun 7 2007, 03:08 AM
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#86
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 241 Joined: 14-December 06 Member No.: 10,360 |
Isn't that kinda like saying that you wouldn't be able to ward a house because if you open the door, the ward collapses? Just askin', is all. |
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Jun 7 2007, 04:34 AM
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#87
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
More importantly if you go with the 'non-relative' absolute movement breaks wards...
Then the whole fact of: The solar system spinning around the galaxy. The earth orbiting the sun. Tetunic plate drift causing land mass to move on earth. In alot of places building sink a bit each year. Even in a 'stationary' building things are moving VERY VERY fast. Even relative to 'earth' things move. Does every ward in Japan break every time there is a earthquake and the ground ripples 4-6 inches? |
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Jun 7 2007, 04:43 AM
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#88
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 617 Joined: 28-May 03 From: Orlando Member No.: 4,644 |
what does an NPC/PC use to counter possession? If I want to slyly have a spirit possess our sami or other mage what aside from Willpower are they going to resist with?
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Jun 7 2007, 08:03 AM
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#89
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
It's spirit's Force x 2 vs. target's Intuition + Willpower. Note that the spirit needs net successes, so ties go in the target's favour. Say you summon a force 3 spirit and attempt to possess a standard security guard (Int 3, Will 3 according to the sample guard in the book), there's a less than fifty-fifty chance of successfully possessing. You need to scale the force of your spirit up quite a bit to get reliable odds of an aggressive possession. Whether or not a willing target can choose to fail the resistance test is debatable but RAW they can't and I would go with that as the prepared vessel rules imply it. So low force spirits are also going to be a poor choice for possessing team mates. In comparison, materialised spirits always get a result. And you don't want to be using Force 6 spirits on security guards just for the sake of competing with materialisation. In regards to the Force 8 spirit comment earlier, it's true that it's scary. But force 8 spirits are supposed to be show stoppers anyway. A materialised version would also be very dangerous and assuming that the mage is using it to channel through herself (which is what we've been discussing), the mage has only gained the new boosted version of themself at the cost of having both a Force 8 spirit and a mage capable of summoning one as separate entities attacking and drawing fire separately. If you apply the spirit to your teammate (which most players would not be happy about), then your net gain is pretty low as the teammate would probably have been very effective on their own. And if you possess some poor ganger, have you really gained much? A materialised earth elemental would have higher stats and could appear whereever whenever you liked, rather than traipsing round the facility after you wasting a service when you might not even need to call on that spirit. And don't forget that the Force 8 spirit cost you 4,000 :nuyen: and probably quite a bit of pain, too. If you don't get thirty seconds of immunity to bullets out of it, it was a pretty poor exchange. I'm not saying that possession isn't good. I'm just saying that it's not over-powered and is balanced with materialisation. |
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Jun 7 2007, 10:08 AM
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#90
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
However, you CAN both just buy hits with 4 dice = 1 hit. So long as the Spirit's pool is 4 dice higher, it will automaically succeed by RAW. |
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Jun 7 2007, 01:24 PM
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#91
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 324 Joined: 18-July 06 From: Charleston, SC Member No.: 8,911 |
Just to chime in, as usual Frank seems to have the better grasp of the mechanics. Possession should not be capped as Materialization isn't.
As far as the possession of the enemy, I don't really see how their effort to resist the spirit's influence is any different than a number of spells that remove free will. They get a chance to resist. Any "bunker of guards" worth their morning soycaf will either have a ward on the bunker or a wage mage to throw some counterspelling or banishing dice. Spirits regardless of their functional methods already have counters and its well known that Group with Mage/Spirits > than group without. As for possessing gang members or people on the street, sure you could, but the reality is no one is going to look to kindly at things like that, and in Shadowrun everyone has friends. Sure lil missy sue who you possessed to get in a fight with some samurai would kick some ass, except when the possession ended she'd still be left with damage and probably die. But oh noes, Sue's uncle is a nasty ass shaman in his own right and doesn't take kindly to his favorite niece being used as fodder. Gangs probably have more members than the number of spirits you have bound, and tend to be pretty particular about what happens to their fellow bangers. All actions have consequence. As for the "I possess my teammates with a force 4 spirit to up all their physical attributes by 4" must realize that 1) The characters are no longer in control and probably won't think its fun watching you play the whole game yourself no matter how uber it would make their guys and 2) None of their knowledge/skills/or experiences (read memory) are available either, so I hope you know everything you'll need to for every encounter. I don't know but I usually find lots of ways to dispel any of the min/maxing some you guys throw about like its everyday game tactics. The GM/Player dynamic is the ultimate balancer in any game and no GM should sit by while any character tries this stuff and thinks that the RAW is the end all of a game session. |
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Jun 7 2007, 03:18 PM
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#92
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Hmm after thinking about some of what was said about Wards I have a question about whether the following is possible. (I think that it is under the current Ruling.)
Ice Flare a mage with way too much time on her hands uses a Quickened Levitate to suspend several Crystals 2 meters in the air to form a Ward's Bounderies/Anchor. (I suppose she could just stick the Levitate spell into a Focus, but that doesn't quite have the same 'rich powerful wizard feel' that she's going for.) With this set up, she now has a Ward that she can move as she wishes provided that the Quickened Levitate doesn't get popped right? (I'm assuming that she'd use a seperate Levitate spell in oder to hover within the Ward herself.) Now could a Mage going for the 'techno' look manage the same thing using Drones? ... Yeah, I understand that simply learning Mana Barrier would be alot easier and more realible, but it doesn't have the same "Wow Factor". Disclaimer; I am NOT saying that movable Wards are broken, in fact I rather like the FAQ's Ruling, just wondering if this idea had any holes that I haven't considered. |
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Jun 7 2007, 07:47 PM
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#93
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
As described by Synner, yes. If all of your drones can maintain precise distances from one antother they can be used to mark both the anchor and the limits of the ward. This is going to be so fragile that you're just asking to be screwed with... |
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Jun 7 2007, 07:54 PM
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#94
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
I'm inclined to say sorry. I'm not of the opinion that a single levitate spell could affect multiple distinct objects such as crystals. You'd need an individual levitate for each crystal, then getting them to move in unison... Probably problematic. Besides I think what you're looking for is a quickened Mana Barrier spell.... |
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Jun 7 2007, 07:59 PM
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#95
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 909 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
Maybe if you include the beams. However that will only apply to about 5% of the square footage of any floor. The odds of any given point being more than 8" thick (20cm) is pretty low. Future construction designs will be, if anything, thinner than current. The laws of material science are pretty clear and the only way flooring would be thicker was if something somewhat weaker than concrete+steel was also significantly cheaper. |
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