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> Cyberlimb Question.
Jagger
post Jun 7 2007, 06:46 PM
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A question for you GMs out there.

The rules given for enhancements and cyberlimbs seems to suggest that the cyberlimb's attributes are separate from general cyberware and bioware, being as they increase the strength of your entire body, and cannot increase the attributes of a cyberlimb. That being the assumption...

Is the strength enhancement of a cyberlimb (up to rating 3) limited by a character's maximum augmented strength.

Example:
Frank has a natural strength of 1. The basic cyberarm strength attribute rating is 3 (with no enhancement) does this mean that Frank's cyberarm strength is limited to 1? How do you handle this in your campaigns?

So far, I have been saying that cyberlimb strength (up to 3) is independent of cyberware and bioware, and also cannot be augmented by magical means, but also is not subject to the maximum augmented attribute rating (save for the rating 3 without cybertorso limitation).
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Moon-Hawk
post Jun 7 2007, 06:50 PM
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QUOTE (Jagger)
and also cannot be augmented by magical means

Cyberlimb rules are messed up. Your best bet is probably to do a search on cyberlimbs and find the old threads, which offer some good house rules. Hopefully Augmentation will fix things.
As to the quote, cyberlimbs paid for by essence are, magically speaking, part of the living being and should not be differently affected by magic. (curse you, Turn to Goo) Increase (attribute) is already a health spell and penalized for low essence; that's sufficient.
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2bit
post Jun 7 2007, 06:57 PM
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To answer your question, by RAW at least, your attributes don't affect what you can and cannot do with cyberlimb attributes. The only limiters that I know of are capacity and the restriction that augmentations > 3 require a cybertorso.
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Wiseman
post Jun 7 2007, 07:08 PM
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QUOTE
Example:
Frank has a natural strength of 1. The basic cyberarm strength attribute rating is 3 (with no enhancement) does this mean that Frank's cyberarm strength is limited to 1? How do you handle this in your campaigns?

So far, I have been saying that cyberlimb strength (up to 3) is independent of cyberware and bioware, and also cannot be augmented by magical means, but also is not subject to the maximum augmented attribute rating (save for the rating 3 without cybertorso limitation).


I would say his arm is Str 3. but keep in mind that its Str 3 in the arm ONLY. Doesn't mean he can lift more (weak legs and back, etc) but would have a good grip in that one arm (nice handshake!) or he could maybe curl more in that arm (provided he could support the weight with his legs). I would let a character using a one hand weapon like a pistol in that arm use the agility 3 however, even if the character had more than 3 agility overall. If a character has 6 Str normally and a cyberarm, his arm just got weaker, so the inverse should be true.

However I do find it odd that your limited by body for wearing armor, but not by body for having big bulky metallic limbs. (page 148)

With a body 1 (I'm suicidal!) I can't wear any armor effectively other than a leather jacket or a helmet but you can strap the big metal cybertorso shell on me (with built in armor) and now i'm tough again. (well in hindsight it does have its own body attribute).

The example on page 335 clearly shows the guys using different scores or averages depending on the limb he uses or combination of limbs.

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Sterling
post Jun 7 2007, 11:39 PM
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There's a great example of the problems with cyberarms and meat bodies in the afterword of the Ghost in the Shell manga.

Basically, if you have a strength of 1 and a cyberarm with a strength of 3, you could feasibly have issues if you try to lift an object that your arm can handle (str 3 x 15 kilos) versus your body can handle (str 1 x 15 kilos), you run the risk of the arm ripping from the anchor points in your body. Now, at a 1 vs 3 difference in strength you're not going to have many issues, but if someone bought a second-hand cyberarm and it was strength 6 versus the natural strength of 1, then you'd have a tough time.

What I houseruled was that you do buy a cyberarm at base 1-3 strength, but then you add any natural bonuses given by race. Otherwise, Humanis members would be ganging up and getting trolls cyberarms and legs, which by the RAW handicaps trolls especially.

When the cybertorso comes into play, then you can (via technology) do pretty well in terms of physical stats. That and a set of skillwires means I always watch out for high mental stat characters with little essence, it's an easy dodge (also done back in the old character build priority system) to use a lot of money to offset low physical stats and few skills.

Cyberlimbs are one of my favorite things about Shadowrun, but I wish they'd spend a little more effort and describe them better. Does SR4 tech mean your cyber sense of touch is equal to a meat limb? 50%? How are they powered, etc.
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sunnyside
post Jun 8 2007, 01:07 AM
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They're generally considered to be powered by ATP same as most bodily systems, I think that was in uhhhh shadowtech? (a great weight loss plan would be to just leave your cyberlegs going while watching trid!)

And cyberarms operate entirely seperatly from the rest of your body stats. You tend to avoid the GiTS problem because the arms aren't even in the same league of strength of GiTS arms. However that is the reason you need the cybertorso for the final plusses.

Interesting tidbit. The way the do body RAW a couple cyberlimbs can notably up the stats of someones body.

Generally as written cyberarms are really only good for the go-go-gadget factor and getting decent stats on people with 1's.
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bait
post Jun 8 2007, 12:18 PM
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Cyber limbs interacting with normal meat stats are already handled in the core-rules, if a task requires the cyber limb(s) to be used in conjunction with the meat limbs then you average them.

So dead lifting with the meat str of 1 and the cyber str of 3 would net you an average of str 2.

So without a cyber torso things shouldn't get too abusive.

QUOTE
Generally as written cyberarms are really only good for the go-go-gadget factor and getting decent stats on people with 1's.


Well SR4 seems to be deemphasizing stats if you stick with the core rules, and stats of 3 are not too uncommon even in the templates.

Also cyber is an anarchism in the mind of the current SR4 dweller, the poor use it as bioware tends to be a rich mans game.
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2bit
post Jun 8 2007, 01:09 PM
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QUOTE
Also cyber is an anarchism in the mind of the current SR4 dweller, the poor use it as bioware tends to be a rich mans game.
Which is a shame IMO, but time marches on. With a rewrite I think they could be a balanced, desirable alternative for characters who want to specialize in damage absorption.
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Sterling
post Jun 8 2007, 08:21 PM
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I've heard rumors that the new gear book, Augmentation, may have rules for full conversion cyborgs (like Briareos in Appleseed) which I would love to see. But I must stress, this is a rumor only and not only do I NOT work for WizKids/FanPro/Bob's Gaming Hut, I have nothing but a passing mention to full conversion on these boards as a source for this rumor. I don't want to hear any complaints when the book is released that 'Sterling promised I could make RoboTroll and now I can't!'

Having said that, I doubt I would ever build a Street Samurai that didn't have the solid basics in cyberware that I've come to hold (me personally, not as a GM) as staples. Now in SR4 that would be cybereyes (package), cyberears (package) a smartlink, and a cyberarm (usually left). Some sort of wired reflexes is also a must, but bioware's getting cheaper so that might be a tossup. And with the new skills being so critical, I might have to reconsider skillwires as well.

Cyberware characters will always be popular because it allows you to focus your karma on stats (non-cybered) and some skills. While the physical adept just got badass enough to be able to mimic almost all aspects of a Street Samurai, it needs a cubic drekload of karma to pull it off. The Sammy is not as karma intensive, but does like large amounts of cash to keep on the bleeding edge of tech.

Edit: The Shadowrun Website mentioned Arsenal before, but now has Augmentation as a separate book. That makes me happy. I like large books full of nifty gear, and I like large books full of nifty stuff to get implanted. I also like large books about the Matrix. What I don't like is having to WAIT FOR THEM!!
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FrankTrollman
post Jun 8 2007, 10:05 PM
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QUOTE
Cyberlimb rules are messed up. Your best bet is probably to do a search on cyberlimbs and find the old threads, which offer some good house rules. Hopefully Augmentation will fix things.


I wouldn't hope too hard. Augmentation is a rules supplement, menaing that the rules and items contained in Augmentation are intended to be in addition to, rather than contradicting the basic rules.

So what you're looking at is a prospect of additional widgets that make cyberlimbs a better deal, but the core rules that make them stupid will still be there. So while overall cyberlimbs will be less of a kick in the crotch, the basic cyberlimb won't change at all.

So you still won't be able to put a finger tip compartment in every finger tip of a cyberhand, for example. If you want something like that, you're still in house rule territory, for which I apologize in advance.

-Frank
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Moon-Hawk
post Jun 11 2007, 04:48 PM
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Frank, I just know you have a set of house rules for cyberlimbs. I think you've posted them before, but I'm not finding it for some reason.
If it's just a quick copy-paste would you care to post them again? (or just PM them to me?)
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Catharz Godfoot
post Jun 11 2007, 09:11 PM
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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
Frank, I just know you have a set of house rules for cyberlimbs. I think you've posted them before, but I'm not finding it for some reason.
If it's just a quick copy-paste would you care to post them again? (or just PM them to me?)

IIRC his houserule was something like 'cyberlimbs have basically unlimited capacity, but can only accommodate one "big item," the size of which is limited by reason.'

.: A cyberhand can contain 5 fingertip compartments, but you need a whole forearm to house a shotgun.
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HappyDaze
post Jun 11 2007, 10:27 PM
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Increase (attribute) is already a health spell and penalized for low essence; that's sufficient.

I don't think that low Essence affects Increase Attribute. AFAIK, low Essence only directly affects Healing, not all Health spells.
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WhiskeyMac
post Jun 12 2007, 02:41 AM
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The FAQ states that low essence applies to all Health spells. Of course the FAQ isn't RAW but still.
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