who will think of the children!?

who will think of the children!?, teenage wasteland

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Darkest Angel

Jun 12 2007, 11:22 PM

Post #26

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Backgammon)

QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jun 11 2007, 09:28 PM)

[...]It won't necessarilary breed expert skill, because on-the-job training of that sort is only as good as one's enemies, but it is enough to justify a 6 in Assault Rifles.

[...]
The average child soldier or kid ganger will have dozens, perhaps hundreds, of deadly combats under his belt if he survives long enough.

Depends how much of a liberal GM you are, but IMO gangers - any gangers - don't have much more than 3, 4 for the really good ones. Why? Cause ganger's spray and pray. Gangers don't go around being precise marksman. They are flashy, macho, grunts. They just don't evolve that kind of precise military shooting, kid or not.

The problem, though, with someone who's been raised as a ganger, is that he can be little else than a ganger. Gangers bark loud, flex muscles, intimidate and are messy. They evolve into good Street Samurai, but not really into the covert ops type. There is still a market for that kind of people, but that niche is less on the ideal shadowrunner side of things.

Why not precise marksmen? Surely they're going to have the same influences from Trid and whatever as anyone else, and plenty of live fire "practice" to perfect their art, probably even moreso than any spec ops guy. Having a couple of guys in your gang well skilled in sniping would give that gang a formiddable reputation and keep their patch free of any trespassers.

pbangarth View Member Profile	Jun 13 2007, 12:14 AM Post #27
Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 10,521 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463	Well, our experience here in Toronto the last few years is that ganger shooters, most of them teenagers, have very little accuracy beyond a few feet in front of them. Bystanders get hit more often than the intended target.

Darkest Angel View Member Profile	Jun 13 2007, 12:19 AM Post #28
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 546 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Manchester, England Member No.: 1,062	We're not talking Torronto, or even Brooklyn. I see SR gangers as being more reminiscent of those from South American Favellas, but with better funding - very scary indeed.

nezumi View Member Profile	Jun 13 2007, 12:34 AM Post #29
Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760	Getting good at a skill isn't only practice, but also learning appropriate techniques. If you focus on the target and not on your front sight, you'll never be as good as someone who actually knows how to use the gun. And ultimately, learning without a teacher depends not only on practice, but the creativity to try new and varied techniques, something not especially common in our species any more, it would seem. A gang that had some ex military folk would be able to bring people up to a reasonable level, but without someone to educate them, the school of hard knocks will only get you so much.

hyzmarca View Member Profile	Jun 13 2007, 12:40 AM Post #30
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	I'm going to disagree. Modern shooting techniques were not developed from thin air, they were actually developed in combat or in response to things that happened in combat. The life of an SR ganger is so much more kill-or-be-killed than that of a modern ganger that natural selection dictates that those who live long probably have superior skills. Older surviving gangers would then teach the shooting skills that they developed to the younger gangers.

Kyoto Kid

Jun 13 2007, 03:57 AM

Post #31

Bushido Cowgirl

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QUOTE (hyzmarca)

No, it is quite possible to have kids who are highly skilled combat operatives simply by virtue of experience. The average six-year-old African rebel will be fodder, but after two years of almost constant combat, if he survives he will end up being a little Rambo.

[edit]

To put it another way, your average adult ex-wageslave shadowrunner will have almost no practical experience before he was forced to begin running. The Average adult ex-military special forces shadowrunner will have expert training but only about a dozen or two actually combat missions under his belt, if that many.
The average child soldier or kid ganger will have dozens, perhaps hundreds, of deadly combats under his belt if he survives long enough.

...this pretty much sums my character Leela.

[ Spoiler ]

In her backstory, she had lost her family when Serbian forces staged a lightning strike on Zagreb which led to a decade long occupation of Croatia. Leela witnessed her parents' deaths, and after a highly experimental and controversial implant procedure that saved her life, awoke to a life of constant oppression and death. Before the occupation, Leela was considered a local celebrity. She was a genius, and a musical phenom (classical piano) who began to bring attention to Zagreb from the European arts community. She also was descended from a family line renowned in Europe for choreographing and staging pyrotechnic displays. Now she was the last of her line.

For most of her teenage life, she lived with the resistance underground. With her heightened capacity for learning and comprehension she turned her focus from music to embrace the destructive art of sabotage and demolitions. At first, this was a matter of concern for her caretaker and resistance cell who were committed to protecting her and finding some way to get her safely out of the country. However, her talent to "read" a structure and almost instinctively know where to place charges was seen as incredibly valuable. The other factor was who would suspect a "playful" little girl skating along the street to be "sizing up" an installation or bridge. Of course at first she wasn't allowed to set charges just gather images for analysis of a projected target though her recording implant.

That all changed after when learned her caretaker and mentor was captured and tortured to death. Against the orders of the cell commander, Leela struck out on her own several days afterwards and destroyed a small but key command centre in retaliation.

Though the cell was reluctant to allow Leela to assume a more active role, that all changed when their demolitions specialist was killed during a failed operation several weeks later. With Leela's mentor gone there was no one left to see to her musical education and with the loss of the cell's demolitionist, there was a huge void to fill. At least Leela was a known quantity for she was fiercely loyal to the cause. For the next three years, the child like young woman stymied the Serbian occupation force who frequently referred to her by the nickname the "Phantom of Zagreb". Leela also gained a rep with the Serbian SSID back in Beograd, which assigned her the code name, "Queen of Diamonds".

After she was extracted by a UCAS mercenary group and taken to Seattle, Leela found herself totally at home in the shadows. The skills she learned though her time with the resistance, and knowledge she absorbed in her spare time made her a very dangerous young lady to deal with. Her playful child like nature made it difficult to suspect her of any wrongdoing.

She was a very fun and interesting character to play.

DuckEggBlue Omeg... DuckEggBlue Omega View Member Profile	Jun 13 2007, 04:13 AM Post #32
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 289 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,625	Child soldiers don't really equate to child runners though. Children will get used and abused by people inclined to do so, becasue it's easy to do. So yeah, they recruit them as soldiers, but it's a long way from that to a person with enough strength of character and the independance to strike out on their own and start running the shadows. And a child who does show any kind of professionalism is likely going to be very indoctrinated into their surroundings, and more likely move up in the world they already live in, rather than become runners. It takes adult cynicism to decide that risking your life for a few nuyen and an employer who will screw you at the earliest oppurtunity, just for some notion of freedom, is better than the alternative. Not a hard and fast rule or anything, but I still think child runners would be a rarity at best.

Kyoto Kid View Member Profile	Jun 13 2007, 04:42 AM Post #33
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490	...Leela was one of those "few", since she was removed from her original surroundings (at the time, against her will). She became a very valuable member of the team she hooked up with due to her ability to adapt and her extensive urban guerilla background from her days in Zagreb. In many ways, a resistance operative is similar to a Shadowrunner in that both live under the radar and frequently are involved in acts of sabotage and subterfuge, as well as information gathering.

Crusher Bob View Member Profile	Jun 13 2007, 05:07 AM Post #34
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253	One interesting cultural bit is that full-immersion VR games might finally make the game trained kill-bots that everyone is so afraid. If you've been playing Battlefield: Corp Wars in VR since you were 8, there's probably a lot of skill transfer when the activation code comes down outta the pipe and all those little kill-bots come online. I mean, the tech for mind-changing computer VR programs has been around since, what 2040?. And the Corp Wars game franchise has been going strong for 8 years now, with over 50 million players worldwide. Think Jim Jones meets WoW, with a lot of dirt cheap black market AKs.

Backgammon View Member Profile	Jun 13 2007, 12:24 PM Post #35
Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600	Anothing thing to consider is that a child that grows up in that kind of environment is going to have serious, serious mental problems. Child soldiers are not alright after they stop fighting. People aren't machines. A kid that kills is gonna have serious issues growing up, which may preclude him from having a clear and rationnal enough mind to become a shadowrunner (or anything, for that matter).

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jun 13 2007, 12:35 PM Post #36
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	I think you're underestimating both the resilience of the human psyche and the level to which the bar of "alright" will have fallen by the 2050s. ~J

mfb View Member Profile	Jun 13 2007, 02:36 PM Post #37
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	and if they become runners, it's not like they ever leave that environment. 'Nam movies aside, PTSD often doesn't really start setting in until, y'know, post-stress. the life of a runner isn't all that unstressful.

Kyoto Kid

Jun 13 2007, 03:04 PM

Post #38

Bushido Cowgirl

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QUOTE (mfb)

and if they become runners, it's not like they ever leave that environment. 'Nam movies aside, PTSD often doesn't really start setting in until, y'know, post-stress. the life of a runner isn't all that unstressful.

...this was a big part of Leela's PC career prior to her retirement. In Seattle, when her caretaker was not around she would often sneak off to meet with her runner friends and go on missions. Leela was finally busted when she managed to get hold of some "questionable" equipment that her caretaker discovered. Even after being taken in by the UK noble Lady Grande, all you had to do was talk about running to her and she was off into the shadows again.

Players in the Rhapsody campaign: stop here.

[ Spoiler ]

toturi View Member Profile	Jun 14 2007, 01:57 AM Post #39
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187	There's no such thing as an ex-runner. There's always some loose end that you thought you had tied up but didn't.

Kyoto Kid View Member Profile	Jun 14 2007, 03:00 PM Post #40
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490	...hehhehheh... Just like there is no Ex-CIA, UGB, or MI-6 Agent... Always something left in the corner of the closet...

Wounded Ronin View Member Profile	Jun 14 2007, 10:18 PM Post #41
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383	If we wanted to be funny and parody society rather than be realistic we could claim that young gang bangers are t3h d34dly because they play violent first person shooter video games that make them into lethal killing machines.

PBTHHHHT

Jun 15 2007, 02:34 AM

Post #42

Neophyte Runner

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QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)

...hehhehheh...

Just like there is no Ex-CIA, UGB, or MI-6 Agent...

Always something left in the corner of the closet...

that reminds me, there's a new television show coming soon on the USA network called Burn Notice. An agent gets dumped by his agency and doesn't know why as all his contacts refuse to talk to him. So now he has to take odd jobs to make a living and also try and find out what happened.

Critias

Jun 15 2007, 06:28 AM

Post #43

Freelance Elf

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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

If we wanted to be funny and parody society rather than be realistic we could claim that young gang bangers are t3h d34dly because they play violent first person shooter video games that make them into lethal killing machines.

Except in Shadowrun that could actually be (more) true. With virtual reality sims being that much more lifelike, you actually could learn a thing or two about almost-realistic gun handling from them. Sim Shooter 100 (today) might just involve wiggling a joystick and hitting the X button when the crosshairs light up. Sim Shooter 5000 (2065) could be slapping on a pair of VR goggles and brandishing a real-weight, real-recoil, light gun and diving around your apartment shooting at imaginary corp ninjas.

And that's not even getting into the games and stuff that can just get piped straight to the brain.

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