 3rd Ed GM Questions |
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 Jun 11 2007, 10:55 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 23-May 07 From: Colorado Springs, CO Member No.: 11,737  |
First, wanted to say hello to everyone... this is my first post on these forums, and it took me a few weeks to even get on, so I feel lucky to be here.
Now, a bit of backstory. I started playing shadowrun in 1995 with a used copy of the 1st edition rulebook and the GM screen. My first RPG, it has always been my favorite. I memorized that book from front to back, and while I didnt understand alot of the rules, we had a good time. From there I went to World of Darkness, then to Live Action games (Amtgard, then SCA). A little over three years ago I got into miniatures with Warhammer 40k, then Warhammer Fantasy, and finally Warmachine. Also played Battletech since the beginning, bought that rulebook the same time I did the old SR1 book. Its been well over 10 years since I ran a SR game. The last time I played 2nd was the most up to date system. Bought all of the books, tried to run a game, and got discouraged with the quality of players I had available. We were all in high school, so I guess age factors into it. Since then, I have just spent my time collecting books, knowing someday I would probably play again. About a month ago one of my wargaming budies looks at my shelf and noticed I had a ton of SR books. He talked about how he played it once, had a decent time, but had some issues with the guy running it and the story and such. We talked for a bit, and in the end I decided to give running a game another go. We got two other interested players, and have spent the past month working on characters and doing research into the game. Our first 'test' game was this past weekend, and man.. do I have some questions. I hope this is the right place for this sort of thing, but if not, please let me know and I will move it. Anyway, let me get down to them. Just wanted to relate my history with the game so I didnt sound like some noob who just bought a book and didnt bother reading it. I still have a bit of a 'tabletop' mindset with some rules, and am having a hard time getting back into the outlook of running a smooth game over 'playing by the rules'. Not used to the power that comes with being GM. ;) Ok, here goes. I will try to break them up into the situation that is appropriate: Combat: - During the combat round, you roll Int, put them all on a list, and go from highest to lowest. That I get. Now, how does the process work? Does everyone declare actions THEN act, or do you wait until your number is up, declare actions, then act? After actions are declared, can someone opt to jump in if they delayed their action? Situation: Player 1 was facing off with Ganger 1. Ganger 1 went first, decided to hold the action to see if Player 1 would surrender. Player 1 goes next, decided to quickdraw his gun and fire. Can Ganger 1 declare to jump in before Player 1 draws, knowing that was he intends to do (Ganger 1 was only planning to shoot if Player 1 didnt surrender.. would Ganger 1 know that Player 1 wasnt surrendering?)? - Movement - Can you break up your actions and movement? As in, can a character move out from behind cover, fire his gun, and then move back behind cover with the rest of his movement? Is there a specific time when the characters are allowed to move? - Melee - Player 2 and Ganger 2 are facing off. Ganger 2 goes first and decides to run at Player 2 and hit him with a Katana. So, they are next to each other and in melee. Player 2 goes next, and wants to move back, quickdraw a gun, and blow Ganger 2 away. Can he do this? Are people 'locked' in melee combat, or can they break away? Is there an attack of opportunity as the person moves away? There were a few more, but my brain is pretty fried from work. I will get back on here as they come up. Thanks! |
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Jun 11 2007, 11:34 PM
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#2
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 23-May 07 From: Colorado Springs, CO Member No.: 11,737 |
Remembered another one:
- Do the players start with any Karma pool? I noticed that for every 10 a human will get 1 karma pool, and for every 20 a metahuman will get 1 karma pool. I was thinking about giving everyone 1 karma pool to start with, for that 'I gotta pull this off' re-roll. - How much Karma comes out of a typical adventure? An evening worth of gaming, involving a shootout of some sort, a bit of RP, some legwork, etc? I remember older editions being fairly unrealistic with the karma awards, but I dont want them to get too much too soon. |
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Jun 12 2007, 12:05 AM
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#3
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Unfortunately I don't have access to my books at the moment. As I remember, however: By canon, IIRC, actions are declared from lowest to highest init for each pass, then resolved. I've never actually seen anyone do it that way.
Movement happens separately from actions and continuously throughout the turn. Provided a character can move fast enough, it is perfectly possible to move out from cover, fire, and return--but in general it's difficult to do so before someone else gets at least one action.
People are not locked in melee. Disengaging is as complicated as stepping away. I interpret the movement rules such as to allow someone to declare that they are moving conditionally with someone else, meaning that if they get more movement than that person they can prevent that person from leaving melee with them, but someone faster can leave melee with someone slower trivially.
Players start with one point.
Our most recent karma award was 60+ karma each for much of the team. ~J |
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Jun 12 2007, 12:26 AM
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#4
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 23-May 07 From: Colorado Springs, CO Member No.: 11,737 |
Are we talking 2nd ed or 3rd ed?
p104 SR3 uses these steps 1 - Dice Pools Refresh 2 - Determine Int 3 - Characters Take actions (highest Int to lowest) 3a - delcare actions 3b - resolve actions 3c - repeat 3a and 3b for every other character in this pass 3d - Calculate the next Int pass, repeat step 3 Edit - Ok, re-read the rules on that same page... these rules are about as clear as mud. The Combat Phase is broken into passes, based on Int. Each pass, everyone involves delcares their actions from lowest to highest. So, how does passing work?
The way we read it, your movement is declared at the start of the turn (walk, run, etc), and then divided between the number of turns you have at that time. So, if you roll 21 you have 3 turns (21, 11, 1) and if your run is 9, you can move 3 on each 'turn'. You could move 1 meter out from cover, shoot, and move 1 back all in your turn... I just wanted to make sure that sounded right.
Ok, I am used to a more abstract system of what you can and cant do from my wargames.. its going to take me awhile to get back into the mindset that the rules are a guide, not law. I can see how you could set it up to say that you are using all of your movement to stay with them, provided you have enough.
Holy ****! Thats enough to boost almost all of their stats a level, if I am reading the karma rules right. Seems like alot. This post has been edited by Omar the Falcon: Jun 12 2007, 12:36 AM |
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Jun 12 2007, 12:30 AM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 23-May 07 From: Colorado Springs, CO Member No.: 11,737 |
Edit: reposted as new - this got overlooked
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Jun 12 2007, 12:33 AM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,451 Joined: 21-April 03 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 4,488 |
60+ Karma for one run? Geez, did you assassinate Lofwyr?
Anyway, there's two different types of karma rewards: team karma and personal karma. It's the EXACT same type of karma and spent the same way, it's just the rewards are split up. Team karma is based on the performance of the team and given to each player. 1 karma for surviving and 1 karma for each major goal accomplished. If the run was to, for example, get inside the compound, extract the kidnapped executive alive, then destroy any information they may have gotten out of her but she accidentally took a shotgun blast and died, that'd be 2 team karma out of a possible three. So each player gets 2 karma. Then you look at how each individual player did. Did they do something super cool with a smart plan? Did they take a bold and life-risking action to save the team or the mission? Did they do a great job of staying in character? Give them a karma point. On an average run, my rewards tend to be between 4 and 6 altogether and on insane psycho end-of-a-huge-story-arch, take-on-the-adult-dragon-single-handedly missions 8 to 10. The largest I ever gave out was 11 karma, but that was a VERY extreme case in which it was a complex and dangerous run that killed off one PC and caused the one with 11 karma to lose a leg and most of his right arm. He had come up with the plan that saved the mission and stood his ground against the Renraku Red Samurai (who had murdered his brother so he both hated and feared them). The player stayed in character damn near the whole game...he was like a method actor. Oh, and for the record, all characters send every 10th karma point earned to their karma pool no matter what race. Humans start off with a karma pool of 2 and other races start with a karma pool of 1. The only way to change this is with a flaw whose name I can't remember...something like Cursed Karma which makes it every 20th point. Just so you don't think you're crazy, the 20:1 for metahumans was true in 2nd Ed, but was changed for 3rd and the entire karma pool concept revamped into the Edge attribute for 4th Ed. The Abstruse One |
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Jun 12 2007, 12:39 AM
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#7
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 23-May 07 From: Colorado Springs, CO Member No.: 11,737 |
p246 SR3 (revised Fanpro version) Karma Pools - 2nd paragraph "One-twentieth (one-tenth for humans) of all Karma earned goes into the character's Karma Pool (every twentieth/tenth point earned)." |
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Jun 12 2007, 12:42 AM
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#8
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 23-May 07 From: Colorado Springs, CO Member No.: 11,737 |
Edited the above post, but it might get missed.
The Combat turn seems pretty confusing. I read into the reverse order delcare actions part, but how does one delay their action, what effect does it have, and when can they jump in? Do you have to skip your action on that entire 'pass' to get an action you can enter into the next 'pass'? What benefit is there to this? |
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Jun 12 2007, 12:44 AM
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#9
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
3rd. <Snipped some stuff about action declaration that I'm not going to try to talk about until I have book access again>
Not quite correct. Your movement is divided amongst all passes in the current turn, even ones in which you don't have actions, and occurs throughout those passes.
On the contrary, the rules are indeed law. However, many actions are less rigidly turn-based than you find in most wargames.
Ok, I got the respose I wanted, now for the big reveal: that was for thirteen months of real-time (eleven and a half months of actual weekly gaming, we took a hiatus in there). The idea of doing enough of a run to award karma for in a single night is alien to me, but your playstyle may vary. Edit: Abstruse: Harlequin's Back awards about 100 karma for doing everything correct, and not counting individual awards. It awards even more than that, if you count something I'm not going to reveal. ~J |
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Jun 12 2007, 03:48 AM
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#10
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 23-May 07 From: Colorado Springs, CO Member No.: 11,737 |
Fair enough. I am ok with awarding Karma on a per-night basis, if they finish the adventure I have planned. At the end of the run, they get the awards.
As for the movement, that is awesome. They just move that much more in each pass? So... your moving still, but can do nothing? |
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Jun 12 2007, 11:39 AM
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#11
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Correct. This is why a quick (Quickness 6) unaugmented (initiative <11) person doesn't beat the pants off of an equally quick (Quickness 6) augmented (initiative >20) person in an 18-meter race--otherwise the unaugmented person would run 18 meters in the first pass while the augmented just runs a mere 6.
Edit: though "can do nothing" is perhaps deceptive. Remember, you get Free Actions during everyone's turns. ~J |
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Jun 12 2007, 02:25 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 519 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Queensland Member No.: 3,180 |
Have you cleared this part up? Steps 1 & 2 happen at the start of each turn. Steps 3, 3a, 3b, 3c & 3d repeat. (3a & 3b) The character with the highest initiative total declares & resolves his action. (The number this occurs on is his combat phase.) (3c)The character with the next highest initiative total then declares & resolves his action, then the next character and so on until all have acted once. (This completes the first initiative pass.) (3d) Now subtract 10 from all initiative totals and repeat the procedure above. Each repeat is another initiative pass. Once anyone's total reaches 0 they no longer may act but may still move in each initiative pass. Any character when their turn to act comes up may choose to delay their action. This delayed action may be taken prior to any other character's later declared action before they resolve it. Movement is considered to occur over a whole initiative pass so a character that moves out of cover to fire is generally exposed for that initiative pass. |
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Jun 12 2007, 07:27 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,451 Joined: 21-April 03 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 4,488 |
Yeah, but Harlequin's Back would take at least 8 regular-length sessions to run all the way through...and it's HARDLY your typical corporate raid, isn't it? The Abstruse One |
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Jun 12 2007, 07:50 PM
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#14
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 23-May 07 From: Colorado Springs, CO Member No.: 11,737 |
So, after the first pass, if there are other passes, people with too low of Int (less than 11 in previous pass) can do nothing but free actions and move? When exactly would they decide what free action and/or move happens? Do they make that decision on the first pass ("My shaman will be running away from the fight" moving his max ammount each pass) or can they change it as further passes happen ("oh, someone tossed a grenade in my path? I am going to jump for cover instead" on the 3rd pass or "I will move out on the first pass, fire my gun full auto as my action, and then move back behind cover for the rest of the turn")? |
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Jun 12 2007, 07:54 PM
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#15
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 23-May 07 From: Colorado Springs, CO Member No.: 11,737 |
Had another one, regarding hand to hand combat.
This last game, I had a player who wanted to 'chokeslam' an opponent. His opponent was an average sized human, he was a troll who was in a pretty good position to do just that. I had another player who wanted to grapple with his opponent to use him as a shield to prevent being shot. How do I work these things out? For both, I just said use the melee combat rules and depending on the damage they do (and the outcome) I would decide how much of what they wanted to do was accomplished. The troll based him pretty good, so I said that his opponent was prone from being pulled off a countertop and thrown to the ground. The other player just grappled with his opponent for a few rounds until he knocked him out. Of course, we thought you were 'locked' in combat, so I didnt even think to have his opponent run and shoot. Now, you can put the condition in your action that you will be 'spending your movement to stay in melee with your opponent' and even if your out of actions, you will move with your opponent automatically (provided they are not faster than you)? How do you handle more complex physical attacks, such as slams, throws, armlocks, etc? I wanted to avoid the special combat rules in CComp, but I might reconsider unless I missed something. |
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Jun 12 2007, 07:55 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 24-August 02 From: Magna, Ute Nation Member No.: 3,166 |
My game isn't divided into "adventures". I play downtime. Heck, most of my game is downtime, so my players would have very little karma if I awarded them karma every job. I award them 3 or 4 karma per session. Maybe 5 if they do something crazy good, like save the world, jump into a devil rat nest to save someone (Unless that's their job), basically things that put them at great risk where there's no obvious reward. I've house ruled so much, I don't remember canon. This is the way I run a round: (It's been working for 5 years, so why stop.) 1. Everyone rolls initiative. 2. The character who rolled the highest goes first, or holds. 3. Each character goes in steps of ten. Meaning if you roll a 21, you go on 21, 11, and 1. So yes, fast characters are icky. Of course I don't allow my players to refresh combat pool each round either (in my opinion, it makes things more difficult and requires more planning). In an example of player A waiting for Thug B to surrender, this is the way I do it. It's probably not canon. 1. Player A draws his weapon and tells them to surrender. Player A declares that if Thug B doesn't surrender, he's going to shoot him. 2. Thug B doesn't surrender and quick draws his pistol. 3. Compare reaction. The person with the highest reaction shoots first. My advice: Don't let the rules slow down a good game. Make a quick descision, so the game doesn't slow down. You can look it up during a break, or after game.
I'd handle it like this. Again, just pulling it out, of thin air, so the game doesn't slow down. Unarmed Combat rolls, Troll STR Dam (No augmented damage from bone lacing or brass knuckles), Human rolls Quickness to be on his feet, difficulty Trolls STR. [QUOTE=Omar the Falcon]I had another player who wanted to grapple with his opponent to use him as a shield to prevent being shot.QUOTE] Unarmed Combat Check, opposed STR rolls. |
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Jun 12 2007, 08:02 PM
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#17
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 23-May 07 From: Colorado Springs, CO Member No.: 11,737 |
To be honest, I really dont know what to do with downtime. The action I can understand, but the rest? I guess I need to get my players to be a bit more motivated to act on their own. Seems like I have to lead them along a bit too much.
Thats how I originally understood the rules to work. Problem is, the fastest guy got shot all to hell, because he decided to draw his guns and wait, and when the 'bad guys' saw this, they shot him. If we had done the 'delcare from lowest' each round, one of the goons would of said "shooting him" at which time he could react as needed. I might try to use something similar to yours though. These rules... I think I could write a 20+ page 'guide' just to clear up what we dont really understand with the rules as written. |
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Jun 12 2007, 08:12 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 24-August 02 From: Magna, Ute Nation Member No.: 3,166 |
If the fastest guy has a low reaction, and he keeps getting shot by the "bad guys" maybe you could have them roll reaction instead. This would give your player the chance to use combat and karma pool. Downtime: I love downtime. My PC's are like real people. They have friends, girlfriends, favorite hang-outs. Make them draw up backgrounds. Have them run into someone from thier past. Role-play contacts and contact meets. Most of my games start out: "Ok, you guys wake up. It's February 13th, 2061. A rainy Sunday. What do you do?" Now, we don't role-play things like using the bathroom, showering, getting dressed, and eatting breakfast. My players say, "My normal morning routine." Then I say, "Ok, that takes you about an hour. Yum, Soy for breakfast." And then the game continues. I love playing downtime because my players grow closer to thier characters this way. |
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Jun 12 2007, 08:29 PM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,451 Joined: 21-April 03 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 4,488 |
I tend to gloss over downtime. I'll ask them if they're doing anything during downtime and if not, I move on. Now downtime is time when nothing's happening -- not necessarily when they're on a run. I might throw a little mini-adventure out there, like they run across a random mugging or something else less cliche.
The Abstruse One |
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Jun 12 2007, 08:38 PM
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#20
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 23-May 07 From: Colorado Springs, CO Member No.: 11,737 |
That sounds like something I will try. Make them get interested in what they do. I would prefer to react to them and what they want then to have to force them along.
I think I misspoke. Let me run you through a simple version of what happened. Mike, Jamie, and Jeb are the players. Goon1, Goon2, and Goon3 are the bad guys. They are all spread out in a Stuffer Shack, but generally in the same area. Reaction looked like this: Mike 22 Goon1 21 Jeb 18 Goon2 15 Goon3 8 Jamie 7 The way we did it, Mike went first. Jeb and Goon2 were already 'fighting', so this was clearly a combat scene. Mike had his character move away from the biggest group of people (innocent bystanders) and draw his guns (a complex action, as they are in cyber holsters and he had to reach into his pants to get them out). After that Goon1 decided to run up and hit him with a Katana. He had plenty of movement to get next to him, and Mike got hurt real bad. If Mike had known Goon1 was going to come at him, he would of quick drawn a different gun and shot him. After that, Jeb moves into melee combat with Goon2. They both spend their turns throwing punches. Had Jeb known that his character could move away, he probably would of and blown him away with his hand cannon. Goon3 jumped on a counter to shoot Mike (missed). Jamie proceeded to walk over and try and chokeslam Goon3 off of the counter and into the floor. Basicly, the fastest guy drew his gun, and everyone attacked him. Somehow, that doesnt seem right. Had we done reverse order delcare actions, it probably would of gone like this: Jamie - move to cover (free), hold action Goon3 - Draw gun, move to cover, take aim on the troll (jamie - biggest threat currently) Goon2 - Melee with Jeb Jeb - Melee with Goon Goon1 - Move to troll with katana in hand, hold action Mike - Quickdraw pistol, blow Goon1 away And then would of gone in Int order for actual actions? I am still a bit confused. Mike would of gone first, shooting Goon1, who would be moving over to Jamie. Jeb and Goon2 would of thrown punches, Goon3 would of taken aim, and Jamie would of done nothing. Pass is over. Pass 2 (assuming no damage which would modify Int score for the round, right?): Mike - 12 Goon1 - 11 Jeb - 8 Goon2 - 5 Goon3 - No action Jamie - No action (held action can be used) Jamie would declare first, casting a spell on the Goon3 who took aim at him (and exploding his head). Goon3 has no action, can do nothing (he didnt say he would be moving last turn except to take cover). Goon2 would be throwing a punch. Jeb says he will move away and shoot Goon2 (Goon2 then says he will spend a free action to move with Jeb, he can do that right?). Goon1 will go after Mike (who shot him) and try to hit him with his katana. Mike will see this, move further away, and keep plugging him with his gun. So, it goes in order. Mike shoots Goon1 (probably hurting or killing him), if Goon1 survives he can move towards Mike and try to hit him. Jeb moves away, and Goon2 can not keep up. Jeb shoots Goon2. Goon 2 then cant do his action (no longer in melee... how would that work?). Goon3 has no action, Jamie makes Goon3 regret drawing down on him. Does that sound about right for a combat round? Please tell me that I at least got close to how it is done. |
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Jun 12 2007, 08:54 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 24-August 02 From: Magna, Ute Nation Member No.: 3,166 |
I see this as poor planning on Mike's part, not a problem with the rules. He should've anticipated the Goon charging him. He should've held his action, or quick drew his other weapon and then waited (I allow for this sort of thing, I don't think the rules do).
Wait, why didn't he do this?
If I'm with a group of my friends and we get into a fight with another group and someone pulls a gun, one of two things will happen: 1) We'll all run away, or 2) We'll all jump that guy. So, I see it more as bad planning on Mike's part. Now, I don't see a problem with declaring first and then going. If that's the way you want to do it, then do it.
Sounds good to me. |
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Jun 12 2007, 08:59 PM
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#22
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
No, that's right, he made himslef a target and chose to do so in a situation where he was not already in a defensive position and then those who were already prepared for combat decided to remove him. Speed != Victory (well, not since SR2) Speed = Opportunity Use opportunities well, and you win, stand in an open field within 1 second sprinting distance of a guy with a sword and slowly draw a gun that you should've already had in hand, and you get cut. |
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Jun 12 2007, 09:05 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 24-August 02 From: Magna, Ute Nation Member No.: 3,166 |
I couldn't have said it better myself. |
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Jun 12 2007, 09:44 PM
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#24
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 23-May 07 From: Colorado Springs, CO Member No.: 11,737 |
I see what the problem was. I guess I am still in my SR2 mindset, combined with my Wargaming mindset, and didnt really think of it like that. So, the best plan for someone who is not prepared to fight (or doesnt know who to fight first) is to hold their action and wait? Do you guys do the whole 'declare your action' thing first, then act, or have them delcare their action, then act in order from the top down? As soon as you declare your action, others can declare free actions or that they are jumping in (if they held their action). So... to go back to that example. Mike holds his action Goon1 declares that he will move toward Jamie, no one jumps in, he does so Jeb and Goon2 fight it out Goon3 ducks behind cover and aims Jamie fries Goon3 Mike then has to act (its the end of the turn) or go into the next pass, choosing to shoot someone, draw his bigger gun, dive behind cover, whatever. Then pass 2? To answer the qustion about why Jeb didnt move away, that was our confusion over the rules. We are all miniatures players, and so the idea that you could just 'walk away' from a melee fight seemed out of place. We figured you were either locked into combat, or would allow your opponent a free strike (as in, he gets a free punch as you concentrate on moving away). Of course, we couldnt find that, but the melee section is also pretty vague. Part of why I asked that question. If we would of known, either he (or Goon2, who was a shaman) would of moved away and gone to ranged combat (or magic). |
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Jun 12 2007, 09:50 PM
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#25
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
That is a better plan of Mikes behavior.
As for leaving a melee, I think you can just apply the Interception rule on SR3 page 108. |
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