Horrors and evil. - Dumpshock Forums

Horrors and evil., Lovecraft would've hated that.

emo samurai View Member Profile	Jun 15 2007, 04:03 AM Post #1
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019	I like the Horrors. I really do. They're crafty, they're inscrutable, and they're, well, horrible. But the thing is, their fates are far too much intertwined with the fates of metahumanity. They actually have to feed off of us. Lovecraft wouldn't have approved. You see, in Lovecraft, his horrors do not give a shit about humanity. They may in the end destroy us all, but it'll be just a cosmic shrug of their eldritch shoulders. One of them will think too hard, or one of them will burp after eating a grave planet, and we're just gone. We're tiny. Their goals are not suffering, and they are not even consumption 90% of the time, they just are/aren't/will be. The horrors are supposed to make you insane just by thinking about them too much. Their statues are supposed to be unplottable in 3-d space. They are not shambling corpses in orichalcum cages, they are not masses of mouths and eyes. They are... well, Lovecraft was notoriously mum on this point. So have you ever implemented Horrors in your games in the classical Lovecraftian way? And if you really want to read up on his stuff, the complete texts of all his work is here.

Garrowolf View Member Profile	Jun 15 2007, 05:10 AM Post #2
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517	well the Horrors are Lovecraftian but not the same as the Old Ones. I think that you are mixing up the feel of a genre and specific entities in that genre. There were several things that didn't cause instant insanity to see them. If you were to mix the Horrors with more Cthulhu mythos then have the Horrors as small scale fragments of the Old Ones. That would be disturbing in and of itself. The other thing that you have to remember is that a character from Shadowrun or even Earthdawn sees fairly frightening things frequently. Most of the things that Lovecraft was thinking would cause instant insanity is knowledge that the assumption of his age were wrong. Our assumptions are constantly challenged in this day and age as a matter of course. We have been numbed to horror through TV and movies. There is a point at which we will become overloaded and do something stupid but the fact that it is so bizzare and impersonal actually neutralizes much of the long term terror. In his day and age Gay Marriage would have been on par with the Old Ones!

DuckEggBlue Omeg...

Jun 15 2007, 06:58 AM

Post #3

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Garrowolf)

In his day and age Gay Marriage would have been on par with the Old Ones!

I think that's going a bit far.

INTER-RACIAL marriage would've been enough to qualify as a horror in Lovecraft's world.

fistandantilus4.... fistandantilus4.0 View Member Profile	Jun 15 2007, 07:11 AM Post #4
Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928	It's not "In Lovecraft we trust". The sutff he put out was good and creepy, but hell, go play the Cthulu game. Earthdawn needs stuff you can fight back against. Hastur doesn't really fall in to that category. Moved to appropriate forum.

hyzmarca View Member Profile	Jun 15 2007, 07:49 AM Post #5
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	Right. Today, an alien monstrosity with giant sharp claws is scary because it can kill us. In the 1930s, such a creature would be scary simply because it was alien. A fish-man may have the gross-out factor, but things that don't give a flip whether you live or die aren't nearly as frightening as things that actually want to kill you.

Tenebris View Member Profile	Jun 15 2007, 07:49 AM Post #6
Target Group: Members Posts: 35 Joined: 3-July 04 Member No.: 6,455	I wonder how many PMs fistandantilus3.0 just got, reminding him that the Horrors are a Shadowrun-specific topic?

Crusher Bob View Member Profile	Jun 15 2007, 08:07 AM Post #7
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253	Lovecraft has never done much for me, mostly because he draws too wide a division between the self and the other in his stuff. Because his monsters lack anima, he might have as well have been writing about, I dunno, volcanoes that will blow up when the starts are right. Of course, Earthdawn works best when the horrors get speaking parts. For example, the horror marks you, chew you around a little bit. Then promises you to stop (and maybe a pile of bonus karma) if you bring it some other victim instead. :love:

FriendoftheDork View Member Profile	Jun 15 2007, 08:58 AM Post #8
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300	Lovecraft rocks, but I don't think these two settings fit at all, least of all the Old Ones. I would rather use aliens akin to those in X-files than to have "Super troll with PAC vs Great Cthulhu.

Kagetenshi

Jun 15 2007, 10:27 AM

Post #9

Manus Celer Dei

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QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)

Moved to appropriate forum.

How do you figure? An Earthdawn discussion is about as Shadowrun as you can get, last I checked.

~J

Chibu View Member Profile	Jun 15 2007, 01:30 PM Post #10
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 494 Joined: 19-February 05 From: Amazonia Member No.: 7,102	Good thing i accidently kept this page open and refreshed it... otherwise i wouldnt' have gotten to read it... But, i dunno... Lovecraft's stuff seems kind of lame and teddy bear-like compared to the horrors. My group has been playing ED for the past 2-3 years now and SR for 4. The horrors, if done poorly, are just big scary things who are most likely gonna kill you. However, if done right, they are the things that your nightmares are made of. I can recall more than one occurance of people having nightmares from Horror-heavy ED sessions. :P

emo samurai View Member Profile	Jun 15 2007, 02:20 PM Post #11
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019	You do have a point; the Lovecraftian horrors just appeared in people's dreams and showed the odd scale. He didn't even describe them 90% of the time unless he was describing a statue or they took human form like Nyarlathotep. Otherwise, it was just some lame description like "His gibbous form oozed eldritch ooze all over the fine tile floor" or "I saw such things as would cause madness in a lesser man." He was never specific. I guess it's good that the horrors aren't just big scaly things with non-Euclidean geometry and are actually tangible constructs of sewn-together flesh and misplaced eyes.

Ravor View Member Profile	Jun 15 2007, 09:04 PM Post #12
Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361	I'm not so sure, personally I think that there is more then enough room for both "Earthdawn' type Horrors and 'Lovecraft' type Horrors as well. After all, a big bad monster that you can see is scary if it wants to eat your face. But a monster that you can never get a good look at is far scarier because whatever you envision in your mind is 100 times more scary then anything I can show/describe to you.

bibliophile20

Jun 15 2007, 10:19 PM

Post #13

Running Target

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QUOTE (Ravor)

I'm not so sure, personally I think that there is more then enough room for both "Earthdawn' type Horrors and 'Lovecraft' type Horrors as well.

After all, a big bad monster that you can see is scary if it wants to eat your face.

But a monster that you can never get a good look at is far scarier because whatever you envision in your mind is 100 times more scary then anything I can show/describe to you.

Have you ever heard of the "Tendo Family Torture"?

The grandson is misbehaving at the dinner table and his grandfather gives him a look and laments that he doesn't have the bubble gum and fluorescent lightbulbs required for the Tendo Family Torture. The grandson freezes. After a moment, the son looks up at his father and says "Pops, you've never mentioned the Family Torture to me before; how does it work?" The grandfather shrugs and says "I don't know, but I'm curious to see what my grandson came up with..."

Ravor View Member Profile	Jun 15 2007, 10:24 PM Post #14
Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361	The version that I remember comes from one of the White Wolf Vampire books, same basic idea though.

nezumi View Member Profile	Jun 16 2007, 12:29 PM Post #15
Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760	I haven't touched on anything close to the Old Ones in a proper Shadowrun game, however I'm running a free form, pre-SR/Planescape/Modern game with my wife which I take more liberties with. I have brought in some Lovecraftian stuff there, including - The PC visits Montauk Island, where an experiment has apparently dragged creatures in that were not restricted to three dimensions, and so would phase in and out, but weren't especially interested in hurting her. She never went downstairs, so I didn't have to figure out what waited down there (she elected to nuke it, although not from orbit, so she may not be sure). The same PC also went to visit the Yezidi, and while there, found a way to Caracosa. That was basically a 'run away and find an exit'. Whilst there, she did attract the attention of some unusual creatures, but managed to escape (barely saving her eyes in the process, thanks to a well timed 'blind' spell).

Wounded Ronin

Jun 18 2007, 05:31 AM

Post #16

Great Dragon

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Eh, if you want to bring the Cthulu on you need to implement sanity loss for SR which is sensitive to both PTSD and also Things That Must Not Be. There have been a lot of discussions on ways to implement this on this board in the past.

EDIT: Since this is such a fun topic I went and did some research for you.

A search:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?act=...ite=sanity+loss

One good thread by Hyzmarca:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...&hl=sanity+loss

QUOTE

Every character has a sanity pool equal to CHA+INT+WIL. It refreshes whenever Karma Pool refreshes.

Certain stressful situations may require that characters make sanity checks. The character rolls dice allocated from the sanity pool vs a TN determined by the nature situation. Wound penalties do not apply. Should the character fail he must take a mental flaw with a point value equal to or greater than the TN of the test. Certain mental flaws (such as flashbacks) may be taken multiple times under this rule. A single success is enough to avoid a permanent flaw. However, a character who only gets one success must still take a temporary flaw until his sanity pool refreshes. Two or more successes are enough to avoid a temporary flaw.

Pedestrian Stresses
It is assumed that Shadowrunners are hardened professionals and should not be bothered by the following stresses. The same goes for most adversarial NPCs. Pedestrian NPCs are not so lucky.

-Watching someone die (in person); TN4
-Being taken hostage for less than 1 hour; TN2 +1 if weapons are brandished
-Being taken hostage for more than 1 hour; TN3 +1 if weapons are brandished
-Receiving an M wound TN3
-Seeing a thing that should not be (an obvious zombie, obvious shedim, or obvious Flesh Form insect, tentacle monster, super dolphin) (in person) TN5.
-Anything else the GM deems fit.

Major Stresses
Unlike Pedestrian Stresses, Major Stresses can test the sanity of PCs and major NPCs. These are the things that make even hardened soldiers cry at night. Add +2 the the TN if these stresses afflict a pedestrian character.

-The death of a loved one (significant other, family member, long time partner, trusted teammate, etc); TN2
+1 if the character witnesses the death
+1 if the loved one is killed by a thing that should not be
+2 if the death is particularly gruesome (skinned alive, eaten by a Wendigo, chunky salsa, flattened by a giant steam iron, etc.)
+3 if the character did it (doesn't apply if he's just a heartless bastard)

-The character receives serious or greater damage; TN2
+1 for deadly damage
+1 for each wound effect
+1 for magic loss
+1 if the wound is caused by a thing that should not be

-Temporary physical or mental violation (Unwanted fondling, control manipulation spells for less than 10 combat turns, mind probe); TN3
+1 if the perpetrator is a things that should not be

-Violating a personal code (Pacifist commits murder, Gunslinger shoots a man in the back)TN4
+1 if a things that should not be is involved

-Prolonged physical or mental violation (rape, torture, control manipulations for more than 10 CTs, multiple mind probes, memory alterations, forced Personafix use); TN5
+2 for permanent involuntary body modification (amputation, piercing, branding, cyberware instillation)
+2 for permanent mental modifications (memory alteration, personality modification)
+1 for each point of magic loss
+1 if the perpetrator is a thing that should not be

Example:Bob the pacifist combat mage is captured by Iv'Trak the extraplanar tentacle monster. Iv'trak first does what tentacle monsters do, then severs Bob's legs so he can't run away, and then does what tentacles monsters do again.
Bob has 18 Sanity dice. Chooses to roll 10 of them. His base TN is 5 because of the tentacle rapes, +2 due to the amputation, and +1 due to the fact that it is being done by a tentacle monster. His total TN is 8.He rolls 19 09 05 04 04 03 02 01 01 01 ; two successes. He keeps his sanity.

Next, Iv'Trak makes Bob choose between killing one of his children himself or letting Iv'Trak kill all three. Bob makes the tough call. His TN for keeping his sanity is 2, +1 because he is witnessing the death, +1 because Iv'Trak should not be, and +3 because Bob is doing the deed himself, for a total of 7. He chooses to roll 6 dice for is sanity test this time. The Highest roll is 5, 0 successes. Bob must now take 7 points worth of mental flaws. He chooses flashbacks (pictures of his dead son) and Phobia (tentacle monster, moderate)

But wait, Bob is a pacifist and he just committed a cold blooded murder. He must make a sanity test for that, too. He only has 2 sanity dice left so he rolls them against a TN of 5; 03 02, no successes. This time Bob chooses the easy way out and takes Amnesia for 5 points. He's still screwed but at least he doesn't know it.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...&hl=sanity+loss

Vietnam War style movie freak outness by me.

QUOTE

Therefore, the ?Vietnam War Sterotype? may be implemented in your SR3 game by making the following changes:

1.) The mod uses Raygun?s guns for increased lethality and realism. Since single rounds from assault rifles now have a reasonable damage code and rate of fire, an entire team of runners using suppressive fire in frantic unison now becomes as dangerous as it should be.

2.) There are no more dodge tests. Dodge tests didn?t exist back in SR2, and SR2 had a much better gritty feel. Furthermore, nothing dampens getting your ?Nam screaming freak on like being able to flail your arms like Neo and survive everything. However, you can still use your Combat Pool to help you avoid suppressive fire, since otherwise the suppressive fire rule wouldn?t work, and also because that represents how well you scrunch behind cover instead of how well you bend backwards at the knees and flail your arms.

3.) Reloading is now clunky and slow. Reloading is no longer just a Complex Action.

*Removing the magazine from your gun is now a Simple Action. You need to have a free hand to pop out your magazine, and the Simple Action puts the magazine in your free hand. You may then drop the magazine on the floor as a Free Action. If you have a Smartlink, you may eject the magazine and let it fall on the floor as a Free Action, but if you want to put the magazine in your hand it?s still a Simple Action.

*If you are holding your magazine in your hand you may slide it neatly back into your ammo pouch, but this requires a Simple Action.

*Drawing a new magazine from your ammo pouch requires a Simple Action, and inserting the magazine into your weapon also requires a Simple Action.

*If you are using a Cylinder-loading or Internal Magazine based weapon, you must first ready Qui rounds with a Simple Action, and then load Qui rounds with another Simple Action.

*If you don?t already have a round in the chamber, you must chamber, which in turn requires another Simple Action. If you have a Smartlink then chambering is a Free Action.

*Lastly, and very importantly, any of the Simple Actions described above may be performed as a Free Action if the character performing the action succeeds in a Quick Draw test for each Simple Action. However, if the magazines and ammunition are not being held in proper ammo pouches or bandoliers, the Quick Draw test is performed at a +2 TN penalty.

The net effect of these rules is that usually nimble people will be able to reload their weapons as quickly as usual, but there is always going to be the risk that under stress things might take a bit longer than you want.

4.) You can now go insane due to cumulative cinematic PTSD. Nothing is cooler than screaming, firing from the hip, and basically walking right out of a ?Nam movie. Therefore, Sabosect?s idea should be implemented.

*Each character in the game gets a Sanity score which is equal to Willpower x 15, for a range of scores from 15 to 90. Once per ?encounter? (where ?encounter? is defined by the GM, like for karma refreshing), if the ?encounter? involves intense combat, each character must roll Willpower versus a TN of 21, and add their Sanity score to their highest roll. If the player?s roll succeeds then he maintains his self-control. If he fails this test he begins cinematically PTSDing and goes berserk. This test may not be augmented with Karma Pool, although the player may find that he feels better if he says, ?Get some, get some, get some? as his character runs about hosing everyone down.

*Characters lose Sanity points for participating in violent acts, provided they can see or astrally sense the effect of the violence they have unleashed; a character who sits in an air conditioned room all day firing cruise missiles at enemies he?ll never see won?t lose sanity, but someone who fires a missile from a helicopter and sees the resulting body and wreckage will lose Sanity. Each time a character kills a resisting and at least somewhat dangerous opponent in combat, he loses a single Sanity point. Each time a character kills more than one resisting and somewhat dangerous opponent in combat, or any number of potentially dangerous but unaware individuals (like sleeping soldiers or coffee-drinking rent-a-cops) he loses two Sanity points. Each time a character kills a helpless and non-resisting person, such as a prisoner, he loses three Sanity points, or five if he kills many such people. Finally, if a character kills an innocent he loses 6 Sanity points, and if he participates in some kind of horrible massacre he loses 10. These Sanity point losses are doubled for shamans whose totems have berserk rage as a drawback.

*The effects of going berserk are handled as per the default SR3 berserk rules for shamans, with the following modifications. Firstly, the character won?t attack his allies, but rather will only attack enemies and neutrals, unless the character is a shaman whose totem has berserk rages as a drawback; in such a case, he will turn on his allies if there are no more enemies or neutrals left to kill. Secondly, a character who has gone berserk will keep attacking and killing enemies and neutrals in a state of psychotic rage until the ?encounter? as defined by the GM is over.

*Once per campaign, a character who has lost Sanity may attempt to regain it by visiting a psychological therapist. The psychiatrist makes an Open Test using his Psychology score and his highest roll is equal to the number of Sanity points that he manages to restore. Because psychotherapy is a pretty tricky thing it may only be rolled for once per campaign, and the character who is being treated must set aside a reasonable amount of time over the course of that campaign for his counseling sessions. The Sanity points probably should be regained at the very end of the campaign, but that?s up to the GM. A character can never have more Sanity points than his Willpower x 15.

*If you use karma to raise your Willpower score, you gain 15 Sanity points per Willpower point gained, since you?re entitled to more Sanity points for having a higher Willpower.

*NPCs theoretically also can fail their Sanity tests in a firefight. This actually can be used to help the GM help the players, because if things are going badly for the PCs the important NPC can always fail his Sanity test and start fighting boldly yet stupidly.

*Lastly, there is a new Edge available to players to balance all these Sanity rules out:

Edge: John Mullins
Available at 5 points, and at 10 points

A character with the John Mullins edge can massacre a thousand screaming enemies by day but can still sleep at night, provided he has a good pillow. This edge is named after real-world Vietnam vet John Mullins, who also was a character in the Soldier of Fortune series of video games.

At 5 points, this edge halves and rounds down the amount of Sanity loss each time the character loses Sanity.

At 10 points, this edge practically transforms the character into a Soldier of Fortune II whirlwind of one-man army death. The character never loses Sanity, ever.

With all that being said, I dedicate this ?mod? to Richard Rouse, the man who learned everything he knows about war from Full Metal Jacket for the purpose of making a video game about modern conflict.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...&hl=sanity+loss

This is an old thread by Fonitrus with a few suggestions in it.

fistandantilus4....

Jun 18 2007, 08:08 AM

Post #17

Uncle Fisty

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jun 15 2007, 05:27 AM)

QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Jun 15 2007, 02:11 AM)

Moved to appropriate forum.

How do you figure? An Earthdawn discussion is about as Shadowrun as you can get, last I checked.

~J

Not quite. You could be discussing shadowrun. ;)

Any thread that's discussing ED specifically, as this one was , goes in Gen Gaming.

QUOTE (Tenebris)

I wonder how many PMs fistandantilus3.0 just got, reminding him that the Horrors are a Shadowrun-specific topic?

None, but you could send me some if you're bored. :)

Wounded Ronin View Member Profile	Jun 18 2007, 09:34 PM Post #18
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383	See, Emo, it doesn't matter in the end whether or not your Horrors care about humans. The most important thing to drive your point home is just to pick a sanity loss mechanic.

Tenebris

Jun 18 2007, 10:01 PM

Post #19

Target

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QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)

None, but you could send me some if you're bored. :)

Ah, but I never argue with uncontested popular expressions of the social common denominator :)

Wounded Ronin

Jun 18 2007, 10:29 PM

Post #20

Great Dragon

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QUOTE (emo samurai)

And if you really want to read up on his stuff, the complete texts of all his work is here.

QUOTE

During the winter of 1927-28 officials of the Federal government made a strange and secret investigation of certain conditions in the ancient Massachusetts seaport of Innsmouth. The public first learned of it in February, when a vast series of raids and arrests occurred, followed by the deliberate burning and dynamiting - under suitable precautions - of an enormous number of crumbling, worm-eaten, and supposedly empty houses along the abandoned waterfront. Uninquiring souls let this occurrence pass as one of the major clashes in a spasmodic war on liquor.

Keener news-followers, however, wondered at the prodigious number of arrests, the abnormally large force of men used in making them, and the secrecy surrounding the disposal of the prisoners. No trials, or even definite charges were reported; nor were any of the captives seen thereafter in the regular gaols of the nation. There were vague statements about disease and concentration camps, and later about dispersal in various naval and military prisons, but nothing positive ever developed. Innsmouth itself was left almost depopulated, and it is even now only beginning to show signs of a sluggishly revived existence.

Complaints from many liberal organizations were met with long confidential discussions, and representatives were taken on trips to certain camps and prisons. As a result, these societies became surprisingly passive and reticent. Newspaper men were harder to manage, but seemed largely to cooperate with the government in the end. Only one paper - a tabloid always discounted because of its wild policy - mentioned the deep diving submarine that discharged torpedoes downward in the marine abyss just beyond Devil Reef. That item, gathered by chance in a haunt of sailors, seemed indeed rather far-fetched; since the low, black reef lay a full mile and a half out from Innsmouth Harbour.

ZOMG LOL LOL LOL LOVECRAFT HAS T3H G1TM0 LOL LOL LOL!!!!!!!!

Sorry. I just couldn't deal with a ZOMG free Emo thread.

Link

Jun 19 2007, 01:26 AM

Post #21

Moving Target

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QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jun 15 2007, 05:27 AM)

QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Jun 15 2007, 02:11 AM)

Moved to appropriate forum.

How do you figure? An Earthdawn discussion is about as Shadowrun as you can get, last I checked.

~J

Not quite. You could be discussing shadowrun. ;)

Any thread that's discussing ED specifically, as this one was , goes in Gen Gaming.

QUOTE (Tenebris)

I wonder how many PMs fistandantilus3.0 just got, reminding him that the Horrors are a Shadowrun-specific topic?

None, but you could send me some if you're bored. :)

Emo didn't mention ED in his opening post even if replies may have strayed off topic.
Ancient History illustrates that there exist Horrors in SR

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jun 19 2007, 01:33 AM Post #22
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Perhaps another way to put it: is a discussion of the Shadowrun universe a discussion about Shadowrun? Unless you answer no, anything but pure rules discussion of Earthdawn ought to be in the Shadowrun forum. ~J

Link View Member Profile	Jun 19 2007, 01:34 AM Post #23
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 519 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Queensland Member No.: 3,180	Sanity Pool is a good idea, sounds cool and SR4 shows us that you can never have too many pools. ;) What isn't addressed is the effects of low Essence characters in these situations - while they are said to walk the edge of sanity would they be more or less prone to horrors (and the Horrors)?

Ravor View Member Profile	Jun 19 2007, 07:20 AM Post #24
Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361	Well personally I've always hated Sanity Points, ect, but I do agree that someone with 0.01 Essence should be more at risk to being Horror Marked, ect then someone who is almost whole, perhaps a simple reversal of the Magical Healing Rules with the Bonus for Essence Loss going to the Horror would work?

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jun 19 2007, 10:17 AM Post #25
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	On the contrary! Someone with their full allocation of six points of vile, corrupting Essence should be vastly more Markable than someone who has replaced it with pure, unfeeling chrome. ~J

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