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> Magic Healing, A question concerning it.
BlackRabite
post Jun 15 2007, 10:48 PM
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I feel like I am missing something blatantly obvious here, but a few of the spells under the "Healing" section don't mention anything changing with the Force of the spell. The ones that come to mind right now are Heal and Improve Reflexes. Heal just says it heals a number of Phys damage equal to your hits on in the spellcasting test with the drain being the amount healed. Imp Reflexes uses Force in the Drain Value calculation but as far as I can tell the only variable is the threshold for the number of Init Passes you are going for.

I have read and re-read the lead in for the Healing section but it's the only section that doesn't give a static use for Force in the spells. We're going to start our first SR campaign tomorrow and I was brushing up on my general knowledge (Everyone playing is new to SR) before the questions start flying.
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Ravor
post Jun 15 2007, 10:51 PM
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Hits are capped by the Spell's Force, and the higher Force the harder it is to Dispel/Disrupt your Spell.
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Jaid
post Jun 15 2007, 11:15 PM
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QUOTE (Ravor)
Hits are capped by the Spell's Force, and the higher Force the harder it is to Dispel/Disrupt your Spell.

the first one is most important. and remember, it's not net hits, it's just hits.

so a force 1 improved reflexes can't do anything. force 2 limits you to 1 IP gained. you need force 4 to gain 3 IPs, because that requires 4 hits.

similarly, a force 1 heal cannot heal more than 1 box of damage. the mage can roll 20 hits, but if it's only a force 1 spell, only that one hit counts.

this becomes especially important when considering spells that are actually going to be opposed spells... a force 1 invisibility spell can't have more than 1 hit, so is really easy for someone to see through. you need it to be force 3 at least, imo, before it starts getting particularly useful...
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Adarael
post Jun 15 2007, 11:27 PM
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And this is why spells with high force are only able to be cast legally by liscenced magicians.

Because the guv'mint wants you to suck unless they've okayed you to be good at something.
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Ravor
post Jun 15 2007, 11:35 PM
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Still, Increased Reflexes (Force 3) will give you a total of 3 IPs, which should be more then enough as well as being more managable when the Mage has to cast it more then once in the middle of a Run.
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Kyoto Kid
post Jun 16 2007, 01:06 AM
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...in Kat Markova's words, "magic healing, bah! вздор".

First Aid 6 (Combat Wounds) + Logic 7 + Medikit rating 6.

...base DP of 21 and can heal a max of 6 boxes damage.
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WearzManySkins
post Jun 16 2007, 01:44 AM
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Hmm I though the procedure was

First use First Aid or Kit for same then plus Logic, max healing is the rating of the first Aid Skill or first aid kit rating.

Then you use magical healing to try and heal the rest. Max healing being the force of the spell cast.

So technically you could heal 6 boxes using a First Aid Kit/spell, then heal 6 more boxes from a force 6 healing spell.

WMS
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Jack Kain
post Jun 16 2007, 01:58 AM
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QUOTE (WearzManySkins)
Hmm I though the procedure was

First use First Aid or Kit for same then plus Logic, max healing is the rating of the first Aid Skill or first aid kit rating.

Then you use magical healing to try and heal the rest. Max healing being the force of the spell cast.

So technically you could heal 6 boxes using a First Aid Kit/spell, then heal 6 more boxes from a force 6 healing spell.

WMS

No you can't, its first aid or healing not both. You can't use first aid then healing magic anymore then you can use first aid on the same wounds twice.
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toturi
post Jun 16 2007, 02:06 AM
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QUOTE (Jack Kain)
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Jun 15 2007, 07:44 PM)
Hmm I though the procedure was

First use First Aid or Kit for same then plus Logic, max healing is the rating of the first Aid Skill or first aid kit rating.

Then you use magical healing to try and heal the rest. Max healing being the force of the spell cast.

So technically you could heal 6 boxes using a First Aid Kit/spell, then heal 6 more boxes from a force 6 healing spell.

WMS

No you can't, its first aid or healing not both. You can't use first aid then healing magic anymore then you can use first aid on the same wounds twice.

Yes, you can. First Aid first and then magic Healing.

The limitation is on the use of First Aid after magic Healing, not before. Read the rules.
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odinson
post Jun 16 2007, 07:33 AM
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QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...in Kat Markova's words, "magic healing, bah! вздор".

First Aid 6 (Combat Wounds) + Logic 7 + Medikit rating 6.

...base DP of 21 and can heal a max of 6 boxes damage.

First you forgot the aptitude and adept improved ability power...
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Zolhex
post Jun 16 2007, 08:09 AM
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P242 SR4 Using first aid ( I just gonna hit the hi points here.)

First - You can only use first aid with in 12 hours of the damage.

Second - The test is First Aid + Logic (2) test (add modifiers as needed, self treatment add your wound mods).

Third - If you have a Medkit add it's rating as a die pool to the test.

Fourth - This test is a complex action and takes a number of combat turns equal to the number of boxes your healing.

Fifth - Evey hit on the die roll beyond the 2 needed heals 1 box of damage this means you need 3 hits to heal 1 box of damage. 4 for 2 5 for 3 6 for 4 so on and so fourth.

Sixth - Critical on the test adds 1d3 of damage to your condition monitor.

Seventh - Max damage boxes you can heal is equal to your first aid skill.

Lastly - you may only heal wounds with first aid once you can how ever heal your damage then take more and then heal that damage. It's Like this you have 5 damage you heal 4 damage on your test. Next round you take 3 damage you now have 4 damage but you can only heal the 3 damage you just got not all 4. Also you may not heal damage left over from a healing spell you can however use a heal spell to heal damage left over after a first aid test.

Do note that first aid can heal both stun and physical while magic can only heal physical.

Hope that helps and have fun playing.
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Big D
post Jun 16 2007, 10:38 PM
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All of which is why a good mage should have at least a couple points+spec in FA, plus a high-rank medkit.
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Buster
post Jun 17 2007, 08:27 AM
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I'm curious, how would you describe the first aid treatment for stun damage from spell drain? Are they just popping ibuprofen? Applying cold packs to their throbbing heads? Cotton packs for nose bleeds?

Also, how long does it take to treat stun damage with first aid? Can it be done in combat?
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Tarantula
post Jun 17 2007, 08:50 AM
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Stun and Physical are the same duration for treatment for first aid.
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Eryk the Red
post Jun 17 2007, 08:08 PM
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Any first aid can be done in combat, but it takes time (which makes you a sitting duck).
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Kyoto Kid
post Jun 17 2007, 10:47 PM
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QUOTE (odinson)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Jun 15 2007, 08:06 PM)
...in Kat Markova's words, "magic healing, bah! вздор"

First Aid 6 (Combat Wounds) + Logic 7 + Medikit rating 6.

...base DP of 21 and can heal a max of 6 boxes damage.

First you forgot the aptitude and adept improved ability power...

...true Aptitude would give her one more die to the pool (when she had enough Karma to apply to it). There are other qualities she has that are more in tune with her background & important to the character's survival (like Increased Pain Tolerance).

As an adept she could "effectively" get two more dice with the Improved Ability power (she started with FA at 5 & increased it with Karma) but being awakened she would not have a Cerebral Booster 2 implant thus the pool would be the same since her logic would be 5 instead of 7. Furthermore it would have limited the the character in other areas since 45 bps would have gone to MA and the Adept Quality.

The point of this post was to illustrate that an effective "in the field healer" could be designed from a mundane standpoint. In team she is on, neither of the mages has a heal spell & we get along just fine. Furthermore she can dish out the damage just as well (if not better) as she can heal it and is quite valuable during other phases such as legwork and recon.

Furthermore, Markova has Medicine skill at 4:

SR IV p.242,244
Characters with the Medicine skill may help speed the
healing process. Medicine is not meant to be applied in combat
situations (First Aid applies to medical help in combat).
The character makes a Medicine + Logic Test; apply appropriate
situational modifiers, including wound modifiers if a
character is applying the Medicine skill to her own wounds.
Each hit provides +1 die to any subsequent healing tests the
character makes for healing through rest, as noted above.

Medicine may only be applied once to each set of wounds,
but it may be applied even if First Aid and/or magical healing
have already been used. Additional damage taken afterward
counts as a new set of wounds.


So she also has a base DP of 11 (15 with her autodoc that has a Medicine 4 autosoft) to help further the healing process outside of combat by adding dice to the patient's natural healing test. As noted above, this can also be done following magic healing as well.

QUOTE (Eryk the Red)
Any first aid can be done in combat, but it takes time (which makes you a sitting duck).

...magic healing also takes the same base time (1 combat turn per box healed, unless hits are applied to reducing the time) as well.
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Jaid
post Jun 17 2007, 11:25 PM
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actually, as i read things the adept ability that improves skills *actually* improves skills. that is, you don't have a +2 to your dice pool when making a first aid check, you actually have 2 more points of first aid when you have the adept ability at rating 2.

that being said, it is much cheaper to just get yourself a reflex recorder...
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Kyoto Kid
post Jun 17 2007, 11:40 PM
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...true that would raise the maximum for healing boxes of damage. However, that is moot since again, Kat was brought up as an example of a totally mundane character who can do a pretty decent job of patching up damage without the aid of any magic.

The Reflex recorder unfortunately works only with Combat & Physical skills, First aid & Medicine are technical (Logic based) skills. The only implant that would help in her case would be getting the final rating level of Cerebral Boosting (3) which she does have the :nuyen: for after the last run.

Now there may be other enhancements forthcoming in Augmented that could add to her skill, but we will have to wait & see.
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hyzmarca
post Jun 17 2007, 11:44 PM
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QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
QUOTE (Eryk the Red)
Any first aid can be done in combat, but it takes time (which makes you a sitting duck).

...magic healing also takes the same base time (1 combat turn per box healed, unless hits are applied to reducing the time) as well.

Heal requires no more effort to sustain than any other sustained spell. Both the magician and the target can continue to fight while the spell is working. First aid requires a the medic to apply continuous effort toward healing the wounds of the target, taking both of them out of the fight.
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Kyoto Kid
post Jun 18 2007, 12:00 AM
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...in my experience all healing has been pretty much been done after combat was over.

I have yet to see a mage take a full IP to cast a heal spell while combat is still going on and then take the additional sustaining penalty afterwards (usually he or she already would have other spells running at the time).

It is more efficient to cast Resist Pain and negate wound modifiers as the target doesn't need to be administered to after the initial casting action, thus not subjecting the mage to a -2 DP modifier until the damage is healed.

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hyzmarca
post Jun 18 2007, 12:27 AM
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That really depends on what strategy they're using. A dedicated support mage who hangs back while the troll melee tank rips through the opposition is going to get more mileage out of combat healing than casting pain resistance.
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cx2
post Jun 18 2007, 01:32 AM
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It could be argued that tanking in SR is a fast way to get killed anyway :P
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knasser
post Jun 18 2007, 05:05 PM
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QUOTE (Adarael)
And this is why spells with high force are only able to be cast legally by liscenced magicians.

Because the guv'mint wants you to suck unless they've okayed you to be good at something.


Curious to know how Lone Star or whoever would guage the force of a spell which I've always considered a metagame concept. "You there - stop trying so hard when you cast spells!"
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Moon-Hawk
post Jun 18 2007, 05:12 PM
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Well, Force isn't completely metagame, it can be assensed and it directly impacts the amount of time a signature lasts. Signature lifespan is probably the simplest, clearest way to reliably measure force in-game.
Of course, these are again things that only magicians can measure, so it all comes down to mysterious expert testimony, in the end.
So I feel like force is meaningful for the magical theorists in SR, but the legality limit is pretty impractical.
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Dashifen
post Jun 18 2007, 05:15 PM
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@knasser

Edit: what Moon-Hawk said.

... plus Sustained Spells have an aura while they're sustained, so you could Assense that aura specifically and with enough hits get a sense of the aura's force or the exact force.

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