logic attribute... who needs programs?, Am I interpreting this correctly? Options

[FrankTrollman]

It seems that the game would probably more easily accept a shift in paradigm where programs counted as equipment, thus making the standard dice pool Logic + Skill + Program. This would mean that Hackers would roll as many dice as medics or lockpickers, and substantially more than IC or Agents.

It would require a reimagining of the basic difficulties of Matrix tasks. But as far as I can tell the initial difficulties were never run through probability comparisons (heck, it appears that the different groups of authors and playtesters didn't even know what the others meant). So I'm not at all convinced that this would constitute a drawback.

So here's what it would look like:

Agents are capped at Rating 4, so they would be rolling about 8 dice most of the time. A Hacker PC on the other hand would be rolling about 16 dice (Logic 7 + Skill 4 + Program 5), so having a Hacker come out of the gate facing off against two different Agents would expect to win most of the time (which is actually fine, PCs are supposed to win in normal circumstances, otherwise the story doesn't continue).

An advanced character (~100 Karma) would be looking at Programs rated at 6, skills at 6, and a Logic of 9. Sometimes he'd be throwing down in his Specialization of choice and get another 2 dice or have a circumstantial advantage or whatever. So he's looking at a 21 die pool that'll go up to 23 or even more when you consider such things as Adept powers, Math Processors, Encephalons, and Aptitudes. At that point you really are just going to slam down on a Rating 4 Agent or five without much concern. But since you could plausibly be forced to deal with a number of Agent Smiths equal to the subscription limit of whatever node you happen to be logged onto, that's still not enough to get you through any possible Matrix security.

So just off the top of my head, that seems the direction that things ultimately want to go.

---

A serious problem I see is that really I don't think I've ever seen a serious Hacker actually take different values on his programs. The whole thing that's supposed to happen where people have Stealth @ 3 and Attack @ 4 just does not happen. PCs get programs at the best rating they can get and don't skimp. Programs that they don't get at max are usually simply left unpurchased for later. If a character has a Program capability at all they use it at the maximum rating. To that extent, I would kind of prefer it if the ratings of Programs were removed altogether. They don't actually do what they are supposed to do.

It was a step forward when spells were either known or not known rather than possessed at specific Force, and I think Programs should probably go the same way. Player characters don't use Rating 2 Edit programs, so it's kind of a waste for them to exist.

-Frank

[Moon-Hawk]

[lunchbox311]

[Whipstitch]

I have to agree with the program ratings being mostly superfluous. As far as I'm concerned, any grade of program other than 3 or 5 might as well not even exist. And honestly, the only I time I take rating 3 (and only because rating 4 is when the price jump kicks in) programs is if I use AR, Wired 2 and a decent Agent to provide expendable backup firepower in matrix combat. My -real- hacker characters always have rating 5. Always.

[Zen Shooter01]

Yeah...

"You're staking your life, freedom, fortune, and reputation on this gear...would you like it rated at bad, better, or best?"

[Big D]

How about giving PCs Logic+skill+prog, but giving IC running on its "home turf" 2xRating? This also gives IC a huge advantage over PC agents, and forces the hacker to do his own dirty work when it comes to cybercombat (although an agent could still sleaze around and help out).

[tehbighead]

i think capping hits based on the program's rating is slightly unfair; while magicians can overcast, no such ability has been proposed so far for hackers.

[Ravor]

True, although I think the fact that Deckers don't have to resist Drain as well as pay Karma to learn their programs acts as a balancing factor in that reguard.

[Whipstitch]

I think it'd be best to simply leave the TM complex form mechanic alone. A complex form is an extension of the technomancer's will, and technomancers are already very much limited by their logic attribute, since that's what they use to determine the number of forms they get to have in the first place.

Besides, TMs really can't afford to get nerfed. They're pretty powerful when used right, but they give up an awful lot to get there as is and it's not like they can match Mages in overall versatility even when the fabled infinite karma horizon approaches.

[FrankTrollman]

[sunnyside]

The hacker technomancer works fine.

You're right that starting out they don't have a full suite of CFs. That's fine, they'll have the critical ones.

The sprites have the rest. For example I like having starting TMs not have any offensive cybercombat skills/CFs to save on BP and CFs. The sprites will do the job just fine, better than any hacker for sure. IF, and that's a big if, I get caught with my stealth of 12. (or 9 if it's a long haul and I have to rely on threading). Ok, a patrol IC might spot a sprite with their stealth 6, but at least it's them not me, and again that sprite is just as hard if not harder to spot than a hacker.

Basically the only thing a hacker TM needs to be able to do is have the exploit and stealth to punch a firewall on the fly and analyze to see stuff on the other side. Sprites can do everything else if you need them to. And since it doesn't cost any money to re-register them, those sprites are good to go as long as you get plenty of downtime.

Still it's nice to have the commonly used CFs for convenience starting out (especially ones that have consequences if they aren't done well like diffuse or sniffer). And in game you can get new CFs at low levels, and, by coupling threading and assist, you can get a CF from 3 to 12 in a hurry if you really need it.

[bibliophile20]

[sunnyside]

And I'll assume you meant "sprites" instead of "spirits". :P

And, before you get too excited, I'm a "he".

[bibliophile20]

[sunnyside]

Actually I may have not phrased that quite right.

There are some few programs that your sprites can't have. ECCM and reality filter are the only ones I think though. There are also some other times when you don't want to use up a service to do some simplish action. Also you may simply not have the skill you need on any of the sprites you have. For example I could see "medic" getting written off.

Or it could be the first adventure and you haven't got the sprites heavily registered.

However part of the point of threading is that it lets you get up to speed fast and specifically can be used to give you a complex form you otherwise wouldn't have.

For example lets say that you find yourself wanting to heal someone elses matrix icon for whatever reason. But you haven't picked medic on any of your full set of sprites, don't know the CF, and don't feel like dropping the unregistered sprite (or fear a bad roll)..

You can quickly thread up a rating 3 program and there you go, there's a fair chance you'll avoid any stun damage. And medic having a lower rating might just cost you an extra turn of applying code fixes, so not a big deal.

The big deal here is you can have any sprite assist if you need to take it to 8 or 9. And there you go. But a lot of times a rating 3 may be plenty, such as when decrypting. Plus if you need a little more spice with the program but you don't have a registered sprite yet you could always drop the sustaining and try again. It takes a little time and risks fading but you should be able to whip up a level 5 from nothing.

The bottom line is that while they may have to roll against fading now and then a starting technoshaman can do everything.

[deek]

[Dashifen]

While I respect that opinion, it doesn't really help out very much :silly:

[deek]

[sunnyside]

Actually TMs CAN basically overcast. If they thread a complex form over their resonance they take physical damage. Such as if you wanted to stay stealthy for a long time, which would take up way to many services. So you thread your stealth up from 6 to 9.

They would then have to resist 3P damage using willpower+resonance.

A starting TM or a TM who raised their resonance but doesn't feel like getting all new sprites might also do that. For example if you have resonance 6 but only a force 5 sprite and a level 5 CF. They might thread it up to seven so when they add in the sprite they're swinging with a level 12 blackout. That would cost them 2P damage.

[deek]

[FrankTrollman]

[Moon-Hawk]

Hey Frank, did you take a look at my house rules a few posts back? You're pretty good at seeing the unintended consequences of rules, and I'd love to get some feedback from you on them, if you have the time.

[sunnyside]

Alright there are plenty of arguments you could present against technomancers, such as being BP/Karma holes.

But "not having the keys" isn't an issue.

Ok maybe my posts got a little long and your eyes glazed over. I'll try to be clearer, highlighting the important points. Hopefully this won't hurt the eyes, and will make it easier for you speed readers.

The bottom line THE TECHNOMANCER HAS ALL THE "KEYS".

In fact THEY DON'T NEED ANY CFs AT ALL. They make life a whole lot easier, but for any program I need I can thread it up to a basic level from nothing and then add an assisting sprite to take its level ABOVE A HACKERS.

i.e. Let say that the techno doesn't have spoof.

Roll threading, get 3 hits, roll 11 die to resist, take no damage. Call in one of many services from a registered level 6 sprite. I've got the program at rating 9.

I spoof whatever needed spoofing.

Later I want to browse for some paydata. Again lets say I've got no browse, or maybe no data search skill either. Well that kind of chode work isn't even worth my time anyway. Off goes a sprite WITH BETTER PROGRAMS AND/OR SKILLS THAN A STARTING HACKER. They find what I need for me.

Uh oh, they found a databomb on it.

No defuse? No Problem! I really want to make this roll, so I want a high program rating. When threading I can decide how many hits are applied after I roll, so I just keep using "zero" hits so that I don't risk any fading until I roll up a LEVEL 6 PROGRAM. I probably get tagged with a couple boxes of stun though, so I can't do that too much. Anyway I call down another assisting sprite to take the prog up to 12 and throw 20 dice at the bomb (12prog+6 hacking+2 VR bonus and no sustaining penalty if you follow the FAQ).

I think by now you get the idea of how a TM can operate CFless. CFs just make it so you can hack quickly and without suffering fading or burning through services.

[Dashifen]

I'm with sunnyside here. While I agree that a TM probably doesn't have complex forms at the rating most hackers have their programs, the ability to thread CFs they don't have and raise the rating of the CFs they do have make them just as powerful, if not more so with creative application of Sprites, than a Hacker. I've had numerous very successfully TMs in my games (okay, three may not be numerous but...) all of whom used threading/sprites to make up the difference between them and hackers.

Plus, the overlooked rule is the one that sunnyside highlighted: you can choose the number of hits to apply to your threading after you roll. If you have 8 dice to resist with, only use two hits and buy of the fading damage! Hell, you can try to thread the same CF again (unless I missed something in the RAW) and since is -2 per sustained threaded CF, you can test to thread the same CF for a static -2 per test up to the limit of Resonance x 2 if you wanted to. No drain at all. Then, tack on the extra sprite dice and you've potentially got Resonance x 2 + Sprite Rating + Skill as your dice pool. I don't see a good way for a hacker to do that.

Granted, I'm not sure it's in the spirit of the rules to allow a CF to be multi-threaded, but the RAW also seems to leave that option open. I haven't had a player notice that yet, so I haven't had to make an in-game ruling on it.

[FrankTrollman]