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> Character Sheets and Linked Attributes, That's weird ...
Aaron
post Jun 20 2007, 02:57 PM
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So I'm adding form fields to my NPC sheet thingy, and I'm wondering: why is there a space for the linked Attribute next to the skill entry? The only time one really cares about a linked Attribute is when one doesn't actually have the skill. Is one meant to fill in all of the skills, just in case?
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Dashifen
post Jun 20 2007, 03:17 PM
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Having a really nice record of what attribute each skill is linked to is really handy especially for players who, unlike us, haven't memorized the skill charts from the beginning of the book. That's the only thing I can think of.

Most of my players have begun to adopt a notation of 4(8) where 4 is the skill's rating and 8 is the dice pool to roll. If you have a specialization, they usually right it as 4(8) +2(...) so that they can quick determine under what circumstances they get the +2. In this format, you don't really need to know the linked attribute since the number in parenthesis.
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deek
post Jun 20 2007, 03:19 PM
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QUOTE (Dashifen)
Having a really nice record of what attribute each skill is linked to is really handy especially for players who, unlike us, haven't memorized the skill charts from the beginning of the book. That's the only thing I can think of.

Most of my players have begun to adopt a notation of 4(8) where 4 is the skill's rating and 8 is the dice pool to roll. If you have a specialization, they usually right it as 4(8) +2(...) so that they can quick determine under what circumstances they get the +2. In this format, you don't really need to know the linked attribute since the number in parenthesis.

But when you up your Agility, to say 5, now you have to erase a lot more on that sheet...when you just jot down the attribute abbreviation, you have a lot less erasing to do when you spend karma...
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Dashifen
post Jun 20 2007, 03:21 PM
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That's never been a problem. Erasing one number and rewriting another one saves a lot of time for my players as no one really memorizes their attributes. The time it takes to add two numbers, while not a large amount of time, is still shorter than looking down and reading your dice pool. Plus, the dice pool tends to include more than just Attribute + Skill. I usually have people add in smartlink modifiers or vision/hearing enhancements, etc. right on their sheet and then I tell the when things don't apply rather than when things do. That saves much more time.
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deek
post Jun 20 2007, 03:28 PM
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I see pros and cons either way...

@Aaron
Looking back at your question, you dice pool is made up of Attribute + Skill, so unless you know what Attribute you have linked, you don't know how many dice to roll. That is why it is pertinent to a character sheet... You can remove it, but then you have to account for your dice pool somehow and I think Dashifen has a good method described above.
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Aaron
post Jun 20 2007, 04:15 PM
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Except that one isn't always rolling the same Attribute with each Skill every time. I mean, sure, Assensing is never used without Intuition as far as I can tell, but a melee character is constantly switching back and forth between Agility and Reaction. The list of Skills that use different Attributes in different situations includes the entire Close Combat Skill Group, Exotic Melee Weapon, the entire Firearms Skill Group, Heavy Weapons, Astral Combat, Spellcasting, Climbing, Gymnastics, the entire Stealth Group, Swimming, Con, Intimidation, Leadership, Perception, and Gunnery (just off the top of my head; there may be more). Not to mention that the various skills used in hacking almost never use an Attribute at all. It seems to me that Skills that are rolled exclusively with one Attribute are the exception, not the rule.
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bibliophile20
post Jun 20 2007, 04:22 PM
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My group uses the space for specializations.
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Dashifen
post Jun 20 2007, 04:49 PM
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QUOTE (Aaron @ Jun 20 2007, 11:15 AM)
Except that one isn't always rolling the same Attribute with each Skill every time. I mean, sure, Assensing is never used without Intuition as far as I can tell, but a melee character is constantly switching back and forth between Agility and Reaction. The list of Skills that use different Attributes in different situations includes the entire Close Combat Skill Group, Exotic Melee Weapon, the entire Firearms Skill Group, Heavy Weapons, Astral Combat, Spellcasting, Climbing, Gymnastics, the entire Stealth Group, Swimming, Con, Intimidation, Leadership, Perception, and Gunnery (just off the top of my head; there may be more). Not to mention that the various skills used in hacking almost never use an Attribute at all. It seems to me that Skills that are rolled exclusively with one Attribute are the exception, not the rule.


I don't think I've ever had a person need to use an alternately linked attribute for anything other than blind firing with Intuition rather than Agility. Where in the rules does it describe these alternate attributes; I don't know what you're getting at yet.
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deek
post Jun 20 2007, 05:09 PM
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QUOTE (Dashifen)
QUOTE (Aaron @ Jun 20 2007, 11:15 AM)
Except that one isn't always rolling the same Attribute with each Skill every time. I mean, sure, Assensing is never used without Intuition as far as I can tell, but a melee character is constantly switching back and forth between Agility and Reaction. The list of Skills that use different Attributes in different situations includes the entire Close Combat Skill Group, Exotic Melee Weapon, the entire Firearms Skill Group, Heavy Weapons, Astral Combat, Spellcasting, Climbing, Gymnastics, the entire Stealth Group, Swimming, Con, Intimidation, Leadership, Perception, and Gunnery (just off the top of my head; there may be more). Not to mention that the various skills used in hacking almost never use an Attribute at all. It seems to me that Skills that are rolled exclusively with one Attribute are the exception, not the rule.


I don't think I've ever had a person need to use an alternately linked attribute for anything other than blind firing with Intuition rather than Agility. Where in the rules does it describe these alternate attributes; I don't know what you're getting at yet.

I'm echoing Dashifen in my gaming group as well...we've never rolled a test using an "alternate attribute" and with our hacking house-rules, we always use Logic...

I was aware of the "blind fire" rule, but just recently, like within the last week, and after a year of gaming, we've never encountered "blind fire"...I may have to read up on more of these alternate attribute tests, as I am completely at a loss...
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Dashifen
post Jun 20 2007, 05:16 PM
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The only thing I can think of is how some of the groups have one common attribute but others have two. For example, Athletics is usually linked to Strength (Climbing, Running, and Swimming), but Gymnastics is linked to Agility. Either way, though, my players tend to write out the skills within a group to avoid forgetting which skills are in which group.
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Aaron
post Jun 20 2007, 05:31 PM
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QUOTE (Dashifen @ Jun 20 2007, 11:49 AM)
I don't think I've ever had a person need to use an alternately linked attribute for anything other than blind firing with Intuition rather than Agility.  Where in the rules does it describe these alternate attributes; I don't know what you're getting at yet.

Lemme see what I can remember. I'll list stuff from the rules, rather than from judgment calls; if I don't recall reading about it, I'll leave it off.
  • Pistols: My team uses Pistols + Reaction for quick draws all the time.
  • various melee skills: Use Agility to attack and Reaction to defend.
  • Climbing: Not all of my players are good climbers, so the good ones often use Logic + Climbing to set up their equipment.
  • Heavy Weapons & Gunnery: Use Sensor for missiles and vehicle attacks.
  • Gymnastics: Agility for doing stuff, Reaction for defense.
  • Stealth Group: Most use Agility to use, Intuition to counter.
  • Astral Combat: Willpower to attack, Intuition to defend.
  • Swimming: Strength to swim, Willpower to hold one's breath.
  • Con, Intimidation, Leadership: Charisma to use, Intuition to counter.
  • Perception: Almost always Intuition, except against Social Skills (Charisma).
  • Spellcasting: Magic to cast spells, Intuition to learn them.
Personally, I think that a general sense of disconnection between a Skill and its linked Attribute (except for defaulting) is a Good Thing. It means the system is more versatile and rich, and over all a better game.
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Dashifen
post Jun 20 2007, 06:28 PM
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Interesting. I've never had anyone quick draw in my games so that one's new to me (I haven't read the paragraph of the book probably since I bought it at GenCon '05), but I guess I see your point now. I guess you've got a point, but still I don't think it's hard to ignore the fact that most of the skills have an attribute which is primarily rolled with it. I think that's what they intended that column to be used for.
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